madthatter Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 So having watched England limp out of another tournament on penalties i'm having to ask myself a question i've been thinking for a good few years now. Are we really that crap? I know our squad was a little thin and Roy hadn't much time but against Italy it was clearly apparent that the gap in quality and effectiveness between our style and the 'top' teams' is vast. Don't get me wrong, I think Roy did a good job all considered and it was a geniune pleasure to see England players giving their all for the cause and each other. But it's clearly not enough. Our ball retention was embarrasing and let's be honest we've been that way as long as I can remember. Maybe there have been spells under Hoddle/Venables when we've upped it a bit but overall we're just not at the same level as Spain, Germany, Italy, a good few South American sides and . . you know the rest! Now is this a culture thing? I've heard many people noting that the lack of skills based coaching at youth level and the emphasis on winning at all costs scuppers technical development. I think this is valid but how do we realistically change it? Also I don't believe that English players are naturally any less 'technical' or 'gifted' than Euro players. Yet time and time again I see us hoofing up to a target man in the hope it will lead to something. So is this a tactics thing, confidence, style or simply ability? We have champions league winners in our team and players we see week in week out performing at a very high level but just don't seem to be able to do it for England for some reason. Rooney would be a prime example although to be fair he has had his injury probs/fitness issues at Tournaments. A bit of a rant I know so apologies but I think its a case of not wanting to admit that maybe we are just a bit shit! The thing that really frustrates me though is that Im sure we have the talent to do so much better yet we never do! Why? FWIW I really like the model Germany and Klinsman adopted where they seemed to target youth and carry it through with a long term plan. The rewards are there for all to see. I don't believe that we couldn't produce equal if not greater talent but we don't! I'd be interested to see what other folk think because although I've enjoyed this tournament having any serious expectations for England is becoming a bit of a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burndens Bogs Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Back in 1986 through to about 2002 i thought we could compete with most of the top teams, lately we seem to have lost a bit of ground now to the likes of Spain Germany Portugal and Italy.If Roy Hodson has a bit more time with the squad maybe can start to compete at that level again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrp Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Thanks for starting your own thread, rather than joining in the other one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enzo gambaro Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Back in 1986 through to about 2002 i thought we could compete with most of the top teams During that period we failed to qualify for a World Cup and were unable to make it beyond the group stages at three European Championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 If Roy Hodson has a bit more time with the squad maybe can start to compete at that level again I'd like to think so! Roy has impressed me so far in many areas, not least in the way he has made us organised and hard to beat - the foundations of any decent side IMO (can someone tell Mr Coyle please It's going to be very interesting to see what kind of team he puts together for the qualifiers. I'd love to see us knock it around like Spain but let's face it that isn't the English way and we will never be able to comfortably play like that. If he can get us playing to our strengths and add to that the ability to keep the ball for longer periods then we should do OK. Germany don't tap it about like Spain but they keep the ball with apparent ease. Surely something we could do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Thanks for starting your own thread, rather than joining in the other one. Your welcome! Didn't see it pal but did apologise for rant . . get over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayjayoghani Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 FWIW I really like the model Germany and Klinsman adopted where they seemed to target youth and carry it through with a long term plan. The rewards are there for all to see. I don't believe that we couldn't produce equal if not greater talent but we don't! The German clubs cooperated with the German FA in harmonising their youth coaching I can imagine the reaction should our FA approach clubs like Man Utd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 The German clubs cooperated with the German FA in harmonising their youth coaching I can imagine the reaction should our FA approach clubs like Man Utd What you mean Fergie, Wenger, Ruskie and the Shieks wouldn't want to help improve English football?? Shock horror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burndens Bogs Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) During that period we failed to qualify for a World Cup and were unable to make it beyond the group stages at three European Championships. Aye, but the 4 World cups that we did qualify for during that period we reached the semi's at one of them and the quarter finals at the other 3, and i think we qualified for all of the Euros - admittedly we've been gash at most of them ( we didn't have to qualify in 1996 obviously, but at least we made the semi's) I think at one point after 2002 we were ranked 4th in the World - it's been the last 5 or 6 years we've fallen behind a bit. My point was that we always seemed to be able to give any team a game........until Sunday. i don't even think Italy were that good. Edited June 26, 2012 by Burndens Bogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgoefc Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 If nowt changes we will be a last 16 or QF team at the most with the odd aberation of failing to qualify for the odd tournament, though with the euros going to 24 teams that shouldnt happen. If we come up against one of the big 8. Brazil, Germany, Holland , Argentina, Italy Spain, France or Portugal we will lose unless its a friendly and they count for nowt. There will also be times when we come up against a middling Uruguay, Croatia USA Russia or African team when we will struggle. We were marginally better in 1990, 1996 and 1998, but a lot worse in 2000 2006 2008 2010. Our best side was 1966 to 1972 with 1970 being our zenith when poor management decisions cost us a final place. That 1970 side could pass, control and move better than any other team in the world bar Brazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burndens Bogs Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 If nowt changes we will be a last 16 or QF team at the most with the odd aberation of failing to qualify for the odd tournament, though with the euros going to 24 teams that shouldnt happen. If we come up against one of the big 8. Brazil, Germany, Holland , Argentina, Italy Spain, France or Portugal we will lose unless its a friendly and they count for nowt. There will also be times when we come up against a middling Uruguay, Croatia USA Russia or African team when we will struggle. We were marginally better in 1990, 1996 and 1998, but a lot worse in 2000 2006 2008 2010. Our best side was 1966 to 1972 with 1970 being our zenith when poor management decisions cost us a final place. That 1970 side could pass, control and move better than any other team in the world bar Brazil. We've beaten Germany,Argentina and France in proper games in the last 12 or so years.In 2002 we had the beating of Brazil till the heat got to us, and Portugal could only beat us on penalties.....twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 We are one of leading all-round sporting nations on the planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgoefc Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 We've beaten Germany,Argentina and France in proper games in the last 12 or so years.In 2002 we had the beating of Brazil till the heat got to us, and Portugal could only beat us on penalties.....twice. We never beat any of um in the knockout stages. In 2002 it was 75F in Japan, hardly the 90F we always complain about as many people commented at the time. We just gave up and some of our players were asking for shirt swops at half time. The second half was pathetic 2-1 down and we hardly got into their last third. Oh sorry Sven brought our secret weapon off the bench for the last 20 mins.....one Kieron Dyer who as I remember touched the ball once! I think you are in self denial if you think we were better than Portugal in either of those games, we sat back and seldom ventured forward getting deeper and deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Casino Posted June 26, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 26, 2012 We are one of leading all-round sporting nations on the planet aye, how many other countries dominate in snooker and darts AND black pudding chucking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whites man Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 We are one of leading all-round sporting nations on the planet World leaders in treadmill walking (over 40's category). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bolty58 Posted June 26, 2012 Members Share Posted June 26, 2012 We really are that bad. It is true. We have all been through the reasons why - too many foreigners, no opportuity for young locals at the top levels; coaching techniques which have weeded out the players with guile and skill in favour of automatons etc. Pride is the thing which gets me. I honestly believe these overpaid wankers (at least a fair proportion of them) have nothing like the pride in the shirt the fans have. Not prepared to sweat blood for the cause. A comparison between the Bundesliga and the Premier League is enlightening. No doubt some will be along shortly with a 'best league in the world' defence. It depends on how you define 'best'. Germany has a production line of top young players, Reus being the latest. Personally, I get far more pleasure from watching the Blue Square Premier on Sultana than watching the PL. The focus on money has fucked us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Zico Posted June 27, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 27, 2012 it's not that we're that bad it's just that we've never been that good 1/4 final team at best group stages at tournaments tend to be like qualifying, we can manage to get through, but once we come up against a decent team, we struggle whilst other teams tend to have a bad tournament here and there - france, germany, italy - they always come back strong again this is not taking into account the numerous tournaments we haven't qualified for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazBob Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) it's not that we're that bad it's just that we've never been that good I was just going to type the exact same thing. Our only chance in this tournament was for us to "do a Greece". It very nearly paid off against the Italians. Woulf it have worked against the Germans though? I doubt it very much. Thing is I'm not particularly disappointed or annoyed. I'd rather go out unbeaten in a tournament then go out at the hands of an absolute drubbing by the Germans ... again. At previous tournaments when we had a far better team the annoying thing was it often seemed the players were underperforming. At least now it's crystal clear our players' abilities are a LONG way behind that of the remaining teams in the tournament. Forget about us trying to compete with the leading nations, we're at a standard now that is alongside the likes of Sweden and Denmark. Since France '98 other countries seem to have improved whereas we've probably gone backwards. Edited June 27, 2012 by DazBobParr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whites man Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 The whole world enjoys watching the Premier League because it is fast paced, exciting, end to end stuff. The downside of that is that ball retention isn't important, if you lose it then no worries, you will get it back in a minute. In the past other countries could not live with the pace and power of the English game but now they can and we haven't developed our game to counter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 We really are that bad. It is true. We have all been through the reasons why - too many foreigners, no opportuity for young locals at the top levels; coaching techniques which have weeded out the players with guile and skill in favour of automatons etc. Pride is the thing which gets me. I honestly believe these overpaid wankers (at least a fair proportion of them) have nothing like the pride in the shirt the fans have. Not prepared to sweat blood for the cause. A comparison between the Bundesliga and the Premier League is enlightening. No doubt some will be along shortly with a 'best league in the world' defence. It depends on how you define 'best'. Germany has a production line of top young players, Reus being the latest. Personally, I get far more pleasure from watching the Blue Square Premier on Sultana than watching the PL. The focus on money has fucked us. I watched quite a bit of Bundesliga when I was in Asia and was very impressed with the overall standard of play. Even the fans seemed to be having a better time out of it! Like a few have said, and i'd tend to agree, where other nations have seen their shortcomings and acted accordingly e.g. Germany, we've (the FA) done nothing tangibly different in my lifetime. No wait, we've appointed foreign coaches in the hope that technical know how will somehow 'rub off' onto our players . . . Folk are right, we have never been good enough, at least not in my lifetime but I really don't think that man for man we are any less able than our Euro chums. Do people think if, say, the likes of Rooney, Gerard, Lampard etc had been coached in Europe or in a more European style they'd be as technically inferior as they have often appeared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 World leaders in treadmill walking (over 40's category). Little by little, bit by bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts