Jft 96 Campaigners

[bolty58]

No, you're right, they won't. But dishonouring their memory (not just you) with cracks about pissed up, thieving Scousers - as though no other club, including our own, has had fans turn up to games late and pissed (and maybe without tickets too, I don't know, just as nobody, by definition, has any idea how many of those pushing to get in the Leppings Lane end didn't have tickets - except that oracle of truth The Sun of course) - isn't the answer.

R.I.P. the 96.

 

Look pal. You seem to consistently overlook one very salient point.

 

You keep mentioning other clubs fans turning up late, blagging their way in, "pissed' etc. I ask you one simple question. Name one other English league club whose fans, in the last 30 years, have been involved in multiple fan deaths at a match just once, never mind twice.

 

If you can, I will shut the fuck up and allow you to create a signature saying  "Bolty said I was right"

 

I doubt you'll be doing that. Sorry but this particular fire has just too much smoke for me. To imply that no scouser had any blame whatsoever is indulging in the same behaviour you seem to be deriding The Sun for. Deluding yourself.

[Guest]

Karma for Heysel?

 

 

God works in mysterious ways

[only1swanny]

I doubt you'll be doing that. Sorry but this particular fire has just too much smoke for me. To imply that no scouser had any blame whatsoever is indulging in the same behaviour you seem to be deriding The Sun for. Deluding yourself.

 

this being the thing that really winds people up..

 

 

yes the police fucked up.

yes they attempted some cover up..

 

 

but no report has the balls to even insinuate that it was the fans to blame as well..

[davidjack]

Look pal. You seem to consistently overlook one very salient point.

 

You keep mentioning other clubs fans turning up , blagging their way in, "pissed' etc. I ask you one simple question. Name one other English league club whose fans, in the last 30 years, have been involved in multiple fan deaths at a match just once, never mind twice.

 

If you can, I will shut the fuck up and allow you to create a signature saying "Bolty said I was right"

 

I doubt you'll be doing that. Sorry but this particular fire has just too much smoke for me. To imply that no scouser had any blame whatsoever is indulging in the same behaviour you seem to be deriding The Sun for. Deluding yourself.

 

 

Going back further than 30 years, there's one club whose fans have suffered a similar tragedy ie too many tried and got in and were crushed - us. That day in March 46, people literally climbed over the fence behind the Embankment, not waiting to form an orderly queue. Nobody, rightly, blames them for the deaths of 33 people.

 

Of course the situations weren't the same. All-ticketing didn't apply, people back then didn't spend hours in the pub before a game etc. The biggest difference would have been that the authorities didn't have police control rooms, helicopters, CCTV, stewarding, twenty years of experience of handling hooliganism. The point I and others have made is all those things that should have been there to protect innocent football fans from this spectacularly failed. Why, as someone else has said weren't fans screened 100m away to weed out the ticketless ones - as had happened before? Folk turning up without a ticket was hardly a new issue, or one unique to Liverpool fans.

 

On the Heysel point, what happened there was also obviously tragic and the victims' families will no doubt always blame Liverpool fans and nobody else. It's worth remembering though that what happened could have happened at any time in the previous 10 years - hooliganism was rife, fans 'running' each other was a regular occurrence. In fact just a few weeks before that game, I'd been at Chesterfield where Wanderers fans infiltrated the home end. If there'd been the same numbers as were in Brussels and the stadium had been as dodgy then something similar might have happened. Who knows? Look at Leeds in the European Cup Final in 75, Spurs in another European final, United's Red Army, Millwall at Luton, Chelsea wherever they went. Liverpool fans were never seen in the same light as any of those and given they played more in Europe than anyone else probably had the fewest number of arrests. All I'm saying is that this describing of Liverpool fans as Murderers as though they invented football hooliganism or ticketless fans doesn't paint the true picture.

Edited August 13, 2013 by davidjack

[bolty58]

Speak up, man!

[gonzo]

Do not alter any text or write anything you intend to appear as your own in between these two symbols...

 

 

Anything that appears in between those two symbols will appear on a post as a quote.

 

Stay away from the symbols at all times.

[davidjack]

Sorry, I'll get the hang of it eventually! Cheers Gonzo.

[davidjack]

Actually, that Chesterfield game was the May a year later... but just goes to show what the climate was still like.

[bolty58]

Listen David. I was involved for years and loved it. Often wonder how I came through it all with only a stabbed shoulder, a glassed forehead, a lost tooth and a coal shovel smashed through my top lip but, and it's a big but, I wouldn't have missed it for the world. No drug could get near to such a high and looking back, it is truly miraculous that something more serious didn't befall me or some of my battlefield comrades. Totally addictive adrenaline rush like no other though and I wish I could do it all again.

 

We can debate the rights and wrongs of it for the next 30 years and it sounds like you and I would never agree.

 

I will remain steadfast to my view though. In the last 30 years where various crowd control measures, increased policing sophistication, surveillance methods etc. have become so prevalent - how is it that that only one clubs fans in England is associated with the two biggest loss of life incidents at football stadia?

 

We can dance around with niceties and being ultra careful about being as inoffensive for as long as you want. Doesn't cut it with me though. I'd rather get straight to the fucking point. Too much of a coincidence for me that both tragedies involved Liverpool supporters.

[Naytch]

I work in Liverpool, and during the xmas party in my first year I was taken to one side by one of the women from HR, and warned that I would end up getting disciplined if I kept stating during conversations about Hillsborough that I thought the fans were partly to blame, you CANNOT say that in Liverpool! Also, saying Paul McCartney is a cunt didn't make me too many friends in the office.

 

Still think I am right on both points though. Obviously, the police were hugely at fault and the cover-up was appalling, but the fans pushing in without tickets surely made the situation worse!

 

And McCartney is indeed a cunt.

[tarian1979]

I work in Liverpool, i had a year or two spell where id deliberately walk into the office/lift in the office reading a copy of the sun. fk em.

[MalcolmW]

I work in Liverpool, i had a year or two spell where id deliberately walk into the office/lift in the office reading a copy of the sun. fk em.

 

I worked in Liverpool for 3 years. If anyone opened "the Sun" in the office it was likely to be set alight.

[tarian1979]

Im pretty sure as well from a different thread malcolm you were in the building i was doing that in - 101 old hall st???

 

I took verbals at times.

 

WH Smith at lime st is one of the few places that sells it, and even then they get covered over by other newspapers, SAD.

[Pablo]

I worked in Liverpool for 3 years. If anyone opened "the Sun" in the office it was likely to be set alight.

 

 

And then that would have been the Fire bregade's fault.

[Pablo]

Im pretty sure as well from a different thread malcolm you were in the building i was doing that in - 101 old hall st???

 

I took verbals at times.

 

WH Smith at lime st is one of the few places that sells it, and even then they get covered over by other newspapers, SAD.

 

They all stock it to sell, just then none (not many) actaully get sold.

 

Tell you what I noticed. On way down to Wemberley to lose to them in the Semi 2 years ago, the amount of red's buying it at service stations, past Brum.

[MalcolmW]

Im pretty sure as well from a different thread malcolm you were in the building i was doing that in - 101 old hall st???

 

I took verbals at times.

 

WH Smith at lime st is one of the few places that sells it, and even then they get covered over by other newspapers, SAD.

 

I was in 101 once it opened. Before than I was in the Sandcastle.

[no balls]

I was in 101 once it opened. Before than I was in the Sandcastle.

Pool attendant?

[DazBob]

Pool attendant?

 

Edit:  Picture waaay too big.  Never mind.

Edited August 13, 2013 by DazBob

[MalcolmW]

Pool attendant?

 

The Sandcastle is not a good match to the Three Graces. It's an ugly 1970s building on Old Hall St which housed R&SA and the Daily Post & Echo.

[tarian1979]

Did you TUPE across to UISL

[MalcolmW]

Did you TUPE across to UISL

 

Indeed.

[Traf]

Did you TUPE across to UISL

 

No, he walked.

[Tyler Durden]

Every football match or public event I've worked in the last year I've had some moron tell me that I killed Liverpool fans.  The fact I'm 28 years old and work for GMP not SYP doesn't appear to matter.  

 

Looking at the day, every major organisation made mistakes - No-one would deny that and no one, now, is.  I just wish someone would have the bollocks to publicly state that the Liverpool fans had a part to play also.

 

The JFT96 need to be very very careful in going down the Civil claim route.   The Civil courts use the "but for" rule where the Criminal courts don't.

 

ie... but for thousands of Scousers turning up without tickets - it wouldn't have mattered what the Police/Ambulance/FA did in response.  The mass number of people who had no entitlement to be there was the FIRST and TRIGGERING stone in the pond.

 

For what it's worth, I have the utmost sympathy with anyone who went to a game and never came home.  But for fucks' sake, sooner or later people need to grieve and move on.  Just like the Juve fans had to.

[COYW]

The mass number of people who had no entitlement to be there was the FIRST and TRIGGERING stone in the pond.

 

Utter bollocks. Firstly you don't know how many turned up without tickets. Words like 'mass number' and 'thousands', in relation to ticketless supporters, don't appear in the official report. There was hardly anyone in the whole end when the crush happened outside. People who had tickets turned up just as late as those that didn't. The police should have been prepared for that. They weren't. That was the trigger.

[Tyler Durden]

[quote name="COYW" post="1255601" mass number

 

. The police should have been prepared for that. They weren't. That was the trigger.

 

"Mass" in the context i used didnt mean 'massive', it meant 'size'. Ie, there were more peple than there shouldve been. That is a fact.

 

The police were prepared for a crowd reflecting the number of tickets sold. In hindsight - a terrible misjudgment, but as someone else stated earlier in the thread - it isnt fair to judge the tactics of that time by today's standards - many of which were created as a result of Hillsbrough itself.

 

Despite what many think, England is the safest place in the world to watch football and the Commanders and Tactical advisers are visited from forces all over the world to learn from them.

 

SYC fucked up by lying about honest mistakes when certain people should've held their hands up