Donald Dead Cat On Is Head Trump

[gonzo]

I’ve yet to meet a plasterer that isn’t a raging cocaine addict.

 

[Cheese]

Just now, Boby Brno said:

I really am sensitive. You’re making me feel vulnerable. 

You lot are all the same.

This really is my last reply to you. My first and last engagement with a troll.

Ok mate

[jayjayoghani]

22 minutes ago, gonzo said:

I’ve yet to meet a plasterer that isn’t a raging cocaine addict.

 

Whenever I see Kieran Trippier, I just think plasterer. 

[Not in Crawley]

This seems to have gone off on the ‘he’s a cunt, no he’s a cunt’ lines again, when actually there are fair points on each side.

free market capitalism allows for people to prosper, the issue comes because we don’t live in a meritocracy, people don’t have the same start in life.

So for every working class person done good there are another hundred middle class folk doing well because of a better start.

Yes, hard work pays off but there is a reason why my company funds internships for the young people in disadvantaged communities in London and everyone in a 2,000 strong building is pretty much white and middle class.

its not fair, the scales are tilted and I know I’ve benefited from this. Yes, I work hard but I also know I’m in a position to earn a salary that doesn’t really do justice to those in the public sector. It’s unfair, I hate my current job but I took it because I got a 15k pay raise, the cost is I’m constantly working - if I could afford it I wouldn’t do this job but I can’t. 

To those who say ‘pick a trade carefully’ not everyone has that luxury, what we choose to reward financially says a lot about us as a society. Both those things go very much hand in hand.

[bolty58]

13 hours ago, kent_white said:

Let's not forget that free market capitalism almost imploded a few short years ago - and is well set to do so again.

I've nothing against sensible capitalism per sé providing its fairly equitable and there's a sense of social justice. 

I just call myself a socialist because it's an short cut to describing the fact that I believe in a welfare state, the fairer distribution of wealth and concepts like a free education and health system. If rampant free market capitalism can achieve this better than any other model then happy beans. At least if it doesn't implode. 

 

Your'e red tinged spectacles on display loud and clear. You mention that free market capitalism almost imploded. I have news for you matey - communism did.

Further - there isn't a socialist experiment anywhere in the world which has truly worked (Venezuela, Cuba anyone?). Only the endeavours of entrepreneurs and business minded people produce thousands of viable jobs for the plebs. Quite simple why - money has to be made to pay for everything and, as much as you socialist Utopians like to dream, your side of politics can never meaningfully succeed. Yes, you can invent jobs for folk in burgeoning bureaucracies, government departments and nationalised industries. Automotons going through the motions with no incentive to perform and no aspirations to chase. They struggle to produce zero.

If you believe in evolution, as I am sure you must (the Creationists are as crazy as the Flat Earthers), there is good reason why we are where we are. It won't be imploding any time soon. Yes, a stock market crash may occur from time to time but the system is fairly forgiving. It doesn't take that long in the whole scheme of things for recovery to take place thanks to the natural industriousness and ingenuity of aspirational humans.

[kent_white]

7 hours ago, bolty58 said:

 

Your'e red tinged spectacles on display loud and clear. You mention that free market capitalism almost imploded. I have news for you matey - communism did.

Further - there isn't a socialist experiment anywhere in the world which has truly worked (Venezuela, Cuba anyone?). Only the endeavours of entrepreneurs and business minded people produce thousands of viable jobs for the plebs. Quite simple why - money has to be made to pay for everything and, as much as you socialist Utopians like to dream, your side of politics can never meaningfully succeed. Yes, you can invent jobs for folk in burgeoning bureaucracies, government departments and nationalised industries. Automotons going through the motions with no incentive to perform and no aspirations to chase. They struggle to produce zero.

If you believe in evolution, as I am sure you must (the Creationists are as crazy as the Flat Earthers), there is good reason why we are where we are. It won't be imploding any time soon. Yes, a stock market crash may occur from time to time but the system is fairly forgiving. It doesn't take that long in the whole scheme of things for recovery to take place thanks to the natural industriousness and ingenuity of aspirational humans.

Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just see the words 'I just call myself a socialist' and then go off on one? 

[frank_spencer]

Don't be daft every one knows that to bolty anyone to the left of centre is a commie. 

I'd be perfectly happy with the Scandinavian style system. Higher taxes paying enough for the system to function properly for all. Can't see it happening mind it'd need a massive cultural shift. 

As for the concept that anyone doing a minimum wage job should struggle because they don't want to do a better one. If all the retail staff, cleaners, HCAs etc became plasterers then who the fuck would do those jobs. 

Back in the halcyon days when 'Britain was great' minimum wage jobs paid enough for people to live on. Now the wages haven't risen in any way like the cost of life. Without a massive shift in this those doing working class jobs are going to be even more screwed. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

I've sometimes wondered about the Scandinavian system too. Certainly some merits.

In reality, I think as long as you get value for money from your taxation, then things aren't too bad

[frank_spencer]

3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I've sometimes wondered about the Scandinavian system too. Certainly some merits.

In reality, I think as long as you get value for money from your taxation, then things aren't too bad

My mate lives in Sweden and says its the best decision he's made. His daughters are loving the school system and he's earning much more even with the higher taxes. 

[kent_white]

I was listening to a programme about Finland the other day. Their system makes ours look positively inept. They've even got a sovereign wealth fund into which they keep a reserve for when the oil money eventually dries up. 

I had taken a screenshot of some interesting facts about its success relative to our own but today I'm on my allowed 0.12mb uploads so I can't show you that either. 

I'm really not sure how this file upload thing is supposed to work? 

[tyldesley_white]

19 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I was listening to a programme about Finland the other day. Their system makes ours look positively inept. They've even got a sovereign wealth fund into which they keep a reserve for when the oil money eventually dries up. 

I had taken a screenshot of some interesting facts about its success relative to our own but today I'm on my allowed 0.12mb uploads so I can't show you that either. 

I'm really not sure how this file upload thing is supposed to work? 

Finland are you not think of Norway and their  sovereign wealth fund ?

[Casino]

24 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I was listening to a programme about Finland the other day. Their system makes ours look positively inept. They've even got a sovereign wealth fund into which they keep a reserve for when the oil money eventually dries up. 

I had taken a screenshot of some interesting facts about its success relative to our own but today I'm on my allowed 0.12mb uploads so I can't show you that either. 

I'm really not sure how this file upload thing is supposed to work? 

Stick a question in the site questions bit

 

Unhappy will pick it uo

[kent_white]

14 minutes ago, Casino said:

Stick a question in the site questions bit

 

Unhappy will pick it uo

- will do! 

[birch-chorley]

3 hours ago, tyldesley_white said:

Finland are you not think of Norway and their  sovereign wealth fund ?

Aye Norway with their relatively small population and a huge sovereign wealth fund built on the back of trillions of dollars worth of oil exports 

hardly a like for like comparison when compared with the U.K. 

[birch-chorley]

14 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

This seems to have gone off on the ‘he’s a cunt, no he’s a cunt’ lines again, when actually there are fair points on each side.

free market capitalism allows for people to prosper, the issue comes because we don’t live in a meritocracy, people don’t have the same start in life.

So for every working class person done good there are another hundred middle class folk doing well because of a better start.

Yes, hard work pays off but there is a reason why my company funds internships for the young people in disadvantaged communities in London and everyone in a 2,000 strong building is pretty much white and middle class.

its not fair, the scales are tilted and I know I’ve benefited from this. Yes, I work hard but I also know I’m in a position to earn a salary that doesn’t really do justice to those in the public sector. It’s unfair, I hate my current job but I took it because I got a 15k pay raise, the cost is I’m constantly working - if I could afford it I wouldn’t do this job but I can’t. 

To those who say ‘pick a trade carefully’ not everyone has that luxury, what we choose to reward financially says a lot about us as a society. Both those things go very much hand in hand.

According to the Guardian, the UK is now more middle class and above than working class and below...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2016/feb/26/uk-more-middle-class-than-working-class-2000-data

It was 66% working class vs 33% middle class in the 1960’s 

its now 45% working class and 55% middle class 

Surely this shows clear progression and would indicate that the system is working?  Indeed if this trend continued then in another 50 years we would be 70% middle class and above vs 30% working class and below 

[birch-chorley]

On 08/11/2018 at 20:33, kent_white said:

Yeah absolutely - but I reckon with a decent free education system and good healthcare - backed up with social resources for the people who inevitably fall through the cracks - there will be less workshy wasters on pimlott road. 

And the ones who were genuinely were just wasters wouldn't have anybody but themselves to blame. 

I don't think there's any reason why a human being should be starving on planet earth in 2018. And I think that anybody working 37.5 hours a week in any job - should be able to have enough money to save to buy their own home, however modest and have enough left over for food and a bit to blow on having fun. That's as a minimum really - and we'll within our grasp if we were really serious about it. 

Do you think we don’t have a decent free education system, good healthcare and social resources for people falling through the cracks? I’m not sure I’d want to be living in many other countries outside the U.K. based on those 3 alone 

I’m no fan of the Tories, however credit where it’s due, NMW in 2010 at the end of the last labour government was £5.93 an hour, that’s £11,500 per year. The 20% tax threshold kicked in at £6,500 so you’d clear £10,500 after tax (forgetting NI) 

NMW goes up to £8.21 next year, £16k a year, 20% tax will start at £12k so you’d clear £15k after tax. A 50% increase in take home pay for NMW jobs in ten years of a Conservative government needs to receive some credit surely? 

I’d say that £15k a year after tax for the least productive jobs in the economy should be able to provide a modest enough income to get by on. Would it buy you a house? At 4 times salary your looking at £64k so probably not 

however, it grates me that we continually look at house prices vs average income and compare it to the 1960’s or 1970’s. Most households now have two incomes, back then most had a single income. Generally this has been driven by women who have become part and parcel of the workforce rather than being expected to be a ‘home maker’ - A great thing I’m sure you would agree. But of course it means higher household income that’s gone on to inflate house prices 

Back to the point, if you take a standard household with two incomes, both on NMW, your looking at £32k a year, that should give you a mortgage of £130k to go at. That should be enough to provide a ‘modest home’ 

Edited November 9, 2018 by birch-chorley

[DirtySanchez]

5 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

Don't be daft every one knows that to bolty anyone to the left of centre i

And not to mention when he makes an 'amusing' alternative to your username or calls you sonny 

[Jol_BWFC]

12 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Back to the point, if you take a standard household with two incomes, both on NMW, your looking at £32k a year, that should give you a mortgage of £130k to go at. That should be enough to provide a ‘modest home’ 

Although not for the millions in London.

[birch-chorley]

7 minutes ago, Jol_BWFC said:

Although not for the millions in London.

Of course, London is like the rest of the major cities across the World in that respect 

But with it comes the opportunity to earn more money than you would in the rest of the country doing a similar job 

[Jol_BWFC]

11 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Of course, London is like the rest of the major cities across the World in that respect 

But with it comes the opportunity to earn more money than you would in the rest of the country doing a similar job 

Indeed, you are right - on the whole, Londoners are paid more than their counterparts elsewhere, but there are plenty of jobs at minimum wage in London too. 

[Traf]

There's also a massive assumption being made that all these people on NMW are getting 37.5 hours pay a week.

What about part-time workers and the 1 million people on zero hours contracts?

[birch-chorley]

I was replying to Kent’s post ‘that anyone working 37.5 hours a week on NMW should be able to afford a modest home’ 

 

 

[jayjayoghani]

5 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

Do you think we don’t have a decent free education system, good healthcare and social resources for people falling through the cracks? I’m not sure I’d want to be living in many other countries outside the U.K. based on those 3 alone 

I’m no fan of the Tories, however credit where it’s due, NMW in 2010 at the end of the last labour government was £5.93 an hour, that’s £11,500 per year. The 20% tax threshold kicked in at £6,500 so you’d clear £10,500 after tax (forgetting NI) 

NMW goes up to £8.21 next year, £16k a year, 20% tax will start at £12k so you’d clear £15k after tax. A 50% increase in take home pay for NMW jobs in ten years of a Conservative government needs to receive some credit surely? 

I’d say that £15k a year after tax for the least productive jobs in the economy should be able to provide a modest enough income to get by on. Would it buy you a house? At 4 times salary your looking at £64k so probably not 

however, it grates me that we continually look at house prices vs average income and compare it to the 1960’s or 1970’s. Most households now have two incomes, back then most had a single income. Generally this has been driven by women who have become part and parcel of the workforce rather than being expected to be a ‘home maker’ - A great thing I’m sure you would agree. But of course it means higher household income that’s gone on to inflate house prices 

Back to the point, if you take a standard household with two incomes, both on NMW, your looking at £32k a year, that should give you a mortgage of £130k to go at. That should be enough to provide a ‘modest home’ 

Aye it does amuse me when I read about Bolton's "housing crisis". You can easily get a decent warm dry recently built home for this. I'd say probably 60% of the country this applies, largely outside of the South East of course. 

Compare that to the NZ median house price of nearly £300k, where median salaries are lower, and often really poor housing quality, you see the word crisis redefined.

[kent_white]

14 hours ago, tyldesley_white said:

Finland are you not think of Norway and their  sovereign wealth fund ?

Yes I did mean Norway. They all look the same to me though!

[kent_white]

Birch - great point about comparing house prices to to 50's and 60's. I'd never thought about that before - although I suspect they'd still be higher even if you factored in the two wages. 

The other point about being able to buy a house on minimum wage - providing you're in a couple - only holds true if like you say - you're in a couple. Which we know a lot of people aren't. And it also relies on both your jobs being stable (which often isn't the case) - plus you'd have needed a period of time to save for a deposit whilst renting - which I'd argue would be extremely difficult - even on minimum wage. 

Like I pointed out a few posts back - I call myself a Socialist as a short cut as much as anything else. I'm a pragmatist really - I'll take whatever system you want to implement providing it delivers and isn't tyrannical. Capitalism is the most widely successful system at promoting growth - but I think it needs to be tempered with a sense of social justice for it to provide the benefits for everybody.