Full Moon

[kent_white]

It's a load of old bollocks. Nurses are as prone to believeing in bollocks as everybody else - just sit in a canteen and listen to them discuss horrorscopes.

 

I've heard it suggested that in the days pre street lighting - it was more likely that crime would be carried out due to the fact that people could actually see what they were doing. And the myth has become part of popular culture.

 

This idea that A&E suddenly gets busy on full moon nights is bollocks.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15166467

[madthatter]

Read this then stop going on like there might be something in it other than centuries of psychological conditioning;

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lunacy-and-the-full-moon/

 

If attempting to put forward a counter viewpoint, with some justification, is 'going on' then fair play.  I think to dismiss the notion outright is not in keeping with scientific practice.  As said before, there may or may not be, I don't know for sure, nor do you.

 

And I was discussing possible affects on behaviour in general not just crazies on full moons

 

 I have read lots of arguments that debunk myths and agree, in the main, as I have said above.  I am not convinced beyond doubt though.  Most papers published on studies like the ones mentioned state that more research is needed to draw more accurate conclusions.

Edited April 24, 2016 by madthatter

[Youri McAnespie]

I like tits don't get me wrong, but after the initial breast-based attention grab my mind almost immediately wanders to thoughts of what the lady in question's fanny looks like...I always imagine that for those girls with bigger breasts that their fannies are often shamefully neglected (by men) and I always think I'd endeavour to right that wrong...Ahem, back to topic...

 

I think all these amateur Dr Spock Richard Dawkins ultra logic types must never have taken Psychedelic drugs, ever...I'm open to the idea we don't even exist, except as part of an intricate computer simulation carried out by future earth beings or alien types to find out more about the human race after our extinction (or, more specifically, the cause or causes of the Extinction)...

Edited April 24, 2016 by Youri McAnespie

[madthatter]

I like tits don't get me wrong, but after the initial breast-based attention grab my mind almost immediately wanders to thoughts of what the lady in question's fanny looks like...I always imagine that for those girls with bigger breasts that their fannies are often neglected (by men) and I always think I'd endeavour to right that wrong...Ahem, back to topic...

 

I think all these amateur Dr Spock Richard Dawkins ultra logic types must never have taken Psychedelic drugs, ever...I'm opem to the idea we don't even exist, except as part of an intricate computer simulation carried out by future earth beings or alien types to find out more about the human race after our extinction (or, more specifically, the cause or causes of the Extinction)...

 

Finally, the voice of reason  

[Youri McAnespie]

I thought that theory up myself (the simulation one, not the fanny one) after being spiked with Psychedelic drugs at a party, thought I was a genius until I did some research at a later time and found out it was an already well established theory/postulation.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Youri McAnespie

[Cheese]

I think all these amateur Dr Spock Richard Dawkins ultra logic types must never have taken Psychedelic drugs, ever...I'm open to the idea we don't even exist, except as part of an intricate computer simulation carried out by future earth beings or alien types to find out more about the human race after our extinction (or, more specifically, the cause or causes of the Extinction)...

 

Far from it. I took more than my fair share of hallucinogens in my 20's. I also believed a lot of utter bolocks when I was younger and more gullible.

 

Those who keep repeating "the moon affects the weather and tides, so maybe it affects humans" are still completely misunderstanding what a full moon is. It's just a bit of extra light in the night sky. The physical/gravitional effect a full moon has on the Earth is no different to that of a half moon or a new moon. You can just see more of the surface. If you go on to suggest that "maybe this extra bit of light makes people go mental", then the advent of street lights would have caused mayhem.

[kent_white]

It's not saying the extra bit of light makes them go mental - it's saying that in days gone by, more people were more likely to be outside on nights where they could see. Therefore more crime was likely to be perpetrated just because of numbers. That's very different from claiming that the moon itself somehow alters mood/inclination.

[kent_white]

I think to dismiss the notion outright is not in keeping with scientific practice.

No but looking at the available evidence and then coming to a conclusion based on methodologically sound studies certainly is.

[madthatter]

Far from it. I took more than my fair share of hallucinogens in my 20's. I also believed a lot of utter bolocks when I was younger and more gullible.

 

Those who keep repeating "the moon affects the weather and tides, so maybe it affects humans" are still completely misunderstanding what a full moon is. It's just a bit of extra light in the night sky. The physical/gravitional effect a full moon has on the Earth is no different to that of a half moon or a new moon. You can just see more of the surface. If you go on to suggest that "maybe this extra bit of light makes people go mental", then the advent of street lights would have caused mayhem.

 

 . . . Armstrong and co. may beg to differ on that one   

 

The moon, sun, earth, gravity, - all connected.  To refuse to even acknowledge that this could affect life on Earth is, to me, a nonsense.  What would happen if we took the moon away?

 

It's a rather silly point but . . .  years ago folk believed the Earth was flat because they didn't have the means to see otherwise.  It made sense intuitively and visually thus the idea of a round Earth was preposterous.   I don't know what effects the moon may have on behaviour, if any, but it can't be definitively refuted; unless you don't allow unknowns into your paradigm, which mainstream science has been known to do on occasion.

Edited April 24, 2016 by madthatter

[Zico]

If attempting to put forward a counter viewpoint, with some justification, is 'going on' then fair play. I think to dismiss the notion outright is not in keeping with scientific practice. As said before, there may or may not be, I don't know for sure, nor do you.

 

And I was discussing possible affects on behaviour in general not just crazies on full moons

 

I have read lots of arguments that debunk myths and agree, in the main, as I have said above. I am not convinced beyond doubt though. Most papers published on studies like the ones mentioned state that more research is needed to draw more accurate conclusions.

Thing is There's been no justification from yourself other than saying "yeah but you never know"

 

Those articles are saying hospital admissions etc are shown not to up during this time

 

It's just years and years of the notion being in existence that folk understandably think there might be something in it, like there being aliens or god etc

 

As for the moon affecting behaviour in general well again it's psychological and not scientific and no different to seasonal affective disorder, which is a thihg

 

By all means beleive what you want but the counter argument that no one really knows for sure is weak and could really be a counter argument to anything you want it to be

[Youri McAnespie]

Far from it. I took more than my fair share of hallucinogens in my 20's. I also believed a lot of utter bolocks when I was younger and more gullible.

 

Those who keep repeating "the moon affects the weather and tides, so maybe it affects humans" are still completely misunderstanding what a full moon is. It's just a bit of extra light in the night sky. The physical/gravitional effect a full moon has on the Earth is no different to that of a half moon or a new moon. You can just see more of the surface. If you go on to suggest that "maybe this extra bit of light makes people go mental", then the advent of street lights would have caused mayhem.

The advent of street lights brought down in number certain crimes - prostitute slayings for example, full moons increased certain crimes - Cornish smugglings etc.

 

Full Moons have infected spinal columns in a bap for breakfast btw.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Youri McAnespie

[madthatter]

No but looking at the available evidence and then coming to a conclusion based on methodologically sound studies certainly is.

 

Aye, I don't dispute that.  I agree.  I do think that more studies would need to be done to be as certain as Cheese was/is.

 

Human behaviour is extremely complex, and in no way is it fully understood.  Animal behaviour can also be affected by effects of the moon.  

 

I don't think any effect would be direct, far from it, but could be a factor in a series of complex and interconnected strands.

 

(a couple of pieces of 'evidence' that support the idea hat the moon has an effect)

 

http://www.aaha.org/blog/petsmatter/post/2014/10/21/134828/Full-moon-rising-Does-it-affect-animal-and-human-behavior.aspx

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16407788

[kent_white]

Bertrand Russell doesn't have a Wanderersways account so I'll do the honours for him.....

 

'If I was to suggest that between the earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.'

[Youri McAnespie]

Why do people yawn at the same time? I reckon it's a vestigal communal signal from pre-language times... "come on now, time to get up the tree/in the cave and get our heads down" (when we were on the menu and there was safety in numbers)...

 

Back to the moon, seeing it seemingly directly overhead when in the Tropics is very strange the first time you see it there.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Youri McAnespie

[madthatter]

Thing is There's been no justification from yourself other than saying "yeah but you never know"

 

Those articles are saying hospital admissions etc are shown not to up during this time

 

It's just years and years of the notion being in existence that folk understandably think there might be something in it, like there being aliens or god etc

 

As for the moon affecting behaviour in general well again it's psychological and not scientific and no different to seasonal affective disorder, which is a thihg

 

By all means beleive what you want but the counter argument that no one really knows for sure is weak and could really be a counter argument to anything you want it to be

 

 

That's not just my argument; but in this context it is valid, I feel.  I don't mean this in a childlike way, moreso that more research is needed.  (I've put some links to studies showing possible effects in another post)

 

We don't sentence a person in court unless it is beyond reasonable doubt.  I don't think that the idea of the moon affecting behaviour is beyond doubt.  In fact, it has such a big impact on life on earth that we have probably not even begun to consider ways in which it could affect us.

 

Is psychology not a science?  I suppose the methods can be questioned/critiqued but that is what leads me to think that we don't fully understand human behaviour enough to be certain of anything.  Other than observations, correlations and anecdotal evidence, which brings us full circle . . .

[Cheese]

 . . . Armstrong and co. may beg to differ on that one   

 

The moon, sun, earth, gravity, - all connected.  To refuse to even acknowledge that this could affect life on Earth is, to me, a nonsense.  What would happen if we took the moon away?

 

I'm talking about a FULL moon, not the moon in general FFS. That's what this thread is about. The effect the moon has on Earth doesn't change simply because we can see more of it.

[Zico]

(a couple of pieces of 'evidence' that support the idea hat the moon has an effect)

 

http://www.aaha.org/blog/petsmatter/post/2014/10/21/134828/Full-moon-rising-Does-it-affect-animal-and-human-behavior.aspx

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16407788

I think you need to put the word support into quotes as well unless we are shifting the discussion from affecting humans to affecting animals that chase their own tails

[madthatter]

Bertrand Russell doesn't have a Wanderersways account so I'll do the honours for him.....

 

'If I was to suggest that between the earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.'

 

But that works both ways.   e.g. Hospitals don't receive more patients on full moons ergo, the moon has absolutely no effect on behaviour.  That also cannot be disproved.  It's reductionist, that's my point.

[madthatter]

I'm talking about a FULL moon, not the moon in general FFS. That's what this thread is about. The effect the moon has on Earth doesn't change simply because we can see more of it.

 

OK.  I did get that but I think the topic in question raises other questions and has wider reaching implications.  Do you then think that the moon, in any observable (or not) state, may affect behaviour/life on Earth?  That is what I was talking about and I assumed what Jules was getting at or possibly musing on.  He may not of course, and if so, I apologise for taking the thread off on a tangent.  Still, seems to have created a healthy discussion on the topic, mind.

[RoadRunnerFan]

The advent of street lights brought down in number certain crimes - prostitute slayings for example, full moons increased certain crimes - Cornish smugglings etc.

 

Full Moons have infected spinal columns in a bap for breakfast btw.

 

You should have said baguette.

[madthatter]

I think you need to put the word support into quotes as well unless we are shifting the discussion from affecting humans to affecting animals that chase their own tails

 

Yes you're probably right.  I think you can make the leap though that if it affects animal behaviour it may then affect human behaviour. (we are animals, pack ones at that - and our behaviour patterns aren't fully understood - very difficult to objectively study oneself.  You could argue all behaviour is the result of genetic influence, or environment, or a mixture of both and other things we may not know about or fully understand.  You may believe your thoughts/actions aren't governed by any outside influences but that would be extremely subjective to do so and go against most modern theories of behaviour.  I couldn't disprove it one way or the other though, see?)  

 

It is suggested with some scientific credence that solar flares may affect moods, for example

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/solar-flare-sun-touches-our-psyche/?page=all  I know it's a different topic but where there's smoke. . .   

 

Come on, is there not a tiny bit of you that thinks maybe?  Just maybe?

[Youri McAnespie]

On the Bertrand Russell quote...To take it off on a tangent, there's a bit in The Matrix, when Neo falls and begins to actually bleed because 'The mind makes it real' - I've had three near death experiences, proper ones, first was as a baby - so no memory, the second I was so sedated with drugs so again no memory. The third I was fairly conscious and I experienced all sorts of visions and terror of hell/judgement/Jesus etc. My logic now knows it was due to oxygen starvation and/or pain related hallucinations - however at the time it was no less terrifying and 'real'. My mind made it real, despite my atheism since around being ten or so, because of all the bollocks I'd been indoctrinated with as a child, not by my parents, who weren't particularly religious, but at school, Catholic fucking schools

[kent_white]

Come on, is there not a tiny bit of you that thinks maybe? Just maybe?

Yes there is a vestigial part of my brain that the concept makes intuitive sense to. Thankfully - science can step in and stop me from thinking like a caveman :-)

[Youri McAnespie]

And judging by the number of teen pregnancies at my secondary it most definitely was a Catholic fucking school.

[kent_white]

On the Bertrand Russell quote...To take it off on a tangent, there's a bit in The Matrix, when Neo falls and begins to actually bleed because 'The mind makes it real' - I've had three near death experiences, proper ones, first was as a baby - so no memory, the second I was so sedated with drugs so again no memory. The third I was fairly conscious and I experienced all sorts of visions and terror of hell/judgement/Jesus etc. My logic now knows it was due to oxygen starvation and/or pain related hallucinations - however at the time it was no less terrifying and 'real'. My mind made it real, despite my atheism since around being ten or so, because of all the bollocks I'd been indoctrinated with as a child, not by my parents, who weren't particularly religious, but at school, Catholic fucking schools

That's fascinating Youri (not being sarcastic). Consciousness is a strange concept in that it's completely subjective. There's a bloke called Dr Eben Alexander who wrote a book called 'Proof of Heaven'. In it he describes his own near death experience in which he 'saw God'. He's a Neurosurgeon so you'd expect him to be able to put his experience into the context of what happens to the brain when it's 'near death' - but he can't. He's convinced that his experience proves that there is life after death and so on and so forth.