Parliament

[Alf Hartigan]

 

As I said the other day which hasn't been answered by the liberals, the Sihks Hindus and Orientals seem to integrate well without issue, maybe they're doing something different?

 

Probably because it's not worth answering.

[bolty58]

Is it true their fannies are in the 2:45 position and they poo out octopuses when they haven't even eaten any?

 

 

I would wager that you would be more likely to know than me, auld reekie.

[bolty58]

They're having a big Indian buffet with bolty

 

 

Don't you fucking start 

[bolty58]

Probably because it's not worth answering.

 

 

Of course it is. They don't answer because it would make them have to re-evaluate and they can't bring themselves to do it.

[Not in Crawley]

Can't disagree with that but you need to also consider the bloke was known for his extremist links. Not viable to trace every single nut job I agree but the root cause of the problem, and admitting it exists without offending the liberals, news addressing head on.

 

Sometimes you have to admit you have a problem before it can be fixed. Too many don't think there is one. That denial will festering sore for the next generation until sensible people of all communities unite and deal with the problem but there is fucks chance of that when too many different people have too many different agendas. There too many good Muslims to allow the bad ones to fuck it up but for whatever reason it's simply not happening.

 

As I said the other day which hasn't been answered by the liberals, the Sihks Hindus and Orientals seem to integrate well without issue, maybe they're doing something different?

Sorry Smiffs, but this is a crock.

 

Stop blaming an imagined liberal mass of people, not willing to acknowledge any sort of killing. The issue here is linking the acts last week to some sort of Islamic terrorist activity.

 

To just blame a mass of people for the act last week is a really simple narrative which people can get behind. The imagined enemy. The problem comes when you look at the actual facts. Firstly, this was not an immigrant from a foreign country and Islamic culture, secondly there is no evidence that he was part of any wider Islamic plot.

 

So, taken that's a given. The issue I believe you are looking at is the western liberal political elite and their failure to acknowledge that there is a fundamental wholesale issue with Islam itself, aside from other religions.

 

Again, it's really seductive. "Those people are the enemy. They kill anyone who doesn't agree with them and subjugate women. I'm saying this because the metrocultural political liberal elite are too scared too. I'm down to earth, and I'm calling it how it is. Both of those groups are the enemies of the 'normal British citizen."

 

The problem with this simplistic reasoning is firstly Islamic terrorism is a relatively new phenomenon. That's a fact. Taken that's a given, then it's not about religion as much as its that intertwining which global politics. Then it becomes much more complex than, 'Muslim immigration, that's the issue.'

 

Secondly, the Liberal elite's failure to address the imagined Muslim issue. Yes, there is a failure here, but it's not a failure of addressing immigration, despite what the media stir up to sell papers. It's a failure to think that western globalisation was working for everyone immediately. We are not going back to 1958, globalisation is happening, some people need help to adjust to this new reality. Manufacturing is not Britain's main source of wealth. Jobs have been lost, and communities outside the major cities have felt displaced; and whether it be Labour or the Conservatives, the resentment that this has fostered has wrongly been ignored. You won't get any arguement from me on that front.

 

Where there is an issue, is the toxic fusing of this issue, along with the global economic crash with immigration - and specifically Islam as a religion. Then there is an enemy to seek out and blame, despite all the evidence saying otherwise. You then get the rise of Farage, speaking for those without a voice on an rightist, nativist agenda. On the other end of the scale is the SNP (and actually, Le Penn as well) who have risen because of the issue above but on an economically leftist platform.

 

Just as potent is the idea that the liberal elite are so worried about causing offence, a huge mass off people turn a blind eye to women being treated as second class citizens under their noses. Again, here there is an issue, but no more so than in Orthodox Judaism, or in fact any other orthodox religion. Tackling this is a religious issue, not just an Islamic one.

 

This is the second terrorist attack I've had the sad previlage to be near. The first one I saw destroy lives and take a sister away from a friend. In comparison, this was a shrug of the shoulders for London, this is not to not to belittle the deaths. However, if this fuels further racial hatred, then that is giving Khalid Mashood's actions a legacy that it does not warrant.

[MickyD]

Sihks Hindus and kitchens are all allowed to drink alcohol

 

Just saying

Hinduism doesn't allow alcohol. Just saying.

[DirtySanchez]

Hinduism doesn't allow alcohol. Just saying.

It would appear it does

 

http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/a-hindu-view-on-drinking-alcohol/

 

"There is no Hindu religious ban on the use of alcohol as there is in Islam"

 

"Does one have to abstain from alcohol to be a Hindu?

Certainly not"

 

Though it conflicts itself in the comments section

Edited March 28, 2017 by DirtySanchez

[Smiffs]

Probably because it's not worth answering.

Or you can't.

[Smiffs]

NiC...where did I mention immigration or lump the problem with one group of people.

 

"...sensible people of all communities unite and deal with the problem but there is fucks chance of that when too many different people have too many different agendas. There too many good Muslims to allow the bad ones to fuck it up but for whatever reason it's simply not happening".

 

Carry on in denial if it makes you feel happier. I often avoid watching the news becuase I takes me sad or angry. There's nothing wrong in that.

[Not in Crawley]

NiC...where did I mention immigration or lump the problem with one group of people.

 

"...sensible people of all communities unite and deal with the problem but there is fucks chance of that when too many different people have too many different agendas. There too many good Muslims to allow the bad ones to fuck it up but for whatever reason it's simply not happening".

 

Carry on in denial if it makes you feel happier. I often avoid watching the news becuase I takes me sad or angry. There's nothing wrong in that.

I think I've made it fairly clear above about the big liberal denial 'issue'

 

Fair enough about lumping together one group, I just worry that this sort of dialogue and ignoring the news doesn't really help matters.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Not in Crawley

[Mounts Kipper]

Sorry Smiffs, but this is a crock.

 

Stop blaming an imagined liberal mass of people, not willing to acknowledge any sort of killing. The issue here is linking the acts last week to some sort of Islamic terrorist activity.

 

WHETHER MASOOD HAD DIRECT LINKS WITH TERRORIST GROUP OR NOT THE FACT IS THAT HE WAS MOTIVATED BY HIS RELIGION, 

 

To just blame a mass of people for the act last week is a really simple narrative which people can get behind. The imagined enemy. The problem comes when you look at the actual facts. Firstly, this was not an immigrant from a foreign country and Islamic culture, secondly there is no evidence that he was part of any wider Islamic plot.

 

HIS ACTIONS WERE EXACTLY AS ISIS HAD REQUESTED VIA PROPAGANDA,  TO SAY HE WAS NOT INSPIRED BY ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM IS NOT TRUE. 

So, taken that's a given. The issue I believe you are looking at is the western liberal political elite and their failure to acknowledge that there is a fundamental wholesale issue with Islam itself, aside from other religions.

 

CHECK THE STATS WORLDWIDE ON ISLAMIC TERRORISM. ISLAMIC TERRORISM KILLS MORE THAN ANY OTHER RELIGION BY A COUNTRY MILE AND MOST KILLED ARE MOSLEMS.

 

 

Again, it's really seductive. "Those people are the enemy. They kill anyone who doesn't agree with them and subjugate women. I'm saying this because the metrocultural political liberal elite are too scared too. I'm down to earth, and I'm calling it how it is. Both of those groups are the enemies of the 'normal British citizen."

 

 

 

The problem with this simplistic reasoning is firstly Islamic terrorism is a relatively new phenomenon. That's a fact. Taken that's a given, then it's not about religion as much as its that intertwining which global politics. Then it becomes much more complex than, 'Muslim immigration, that's the issue.'

 

ISLAM HAS ATTACKED NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES KILLING MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FOR CENTURIES JUST TO TURN THE NON MUSLIM POPULATION TO MUSLIM. SO ITS NOT A GIVEN.    

 

Secondly, the Liberal elite's failure to address the imagined Muslim issue. Yes, there is a failure here, but it's not a failure of addressing immigration, despite what the media stir up to sell papers. It's a failure to think that western globalisation was working for everyone immediately. We are not going back to 1958, globalisation is happening, some people need help to adjust to this new reality. Manufacturing is not Britain's main source of wealth. Jobs have been lost, and communities outside the major cities have felt displaced; and whether it be Labour or the Conservatives, the resentment that this has fostered has wrongly been ignored. You won't get any arguement from me on that front.

 

HOPEFULLY LEAVING EUROPE WILL RE-BALANCE OUR MANUFACTURING SECTOR THE SIGNS ARE ALREADY POSITIVE.

 

Where there is an issue, is the toxic fusing of this issue, along with the global economic crash with immigration - and specifically Islam as a religion. Then there is an enemy to seek out and blame, despite all the evidence saying otherwise. You then get the rise of Farage, speaking for those without a voice on an rightist, nativist agenda. On the other end of the scale is the SNP (and actually, Le Penn as well) who have risen because of the issue above but on an economically leftist platform.

 

I SEE NO TOXIC FUSING OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM WITH THE ECONOMIC CRASH, JUST A REALITY THAT THE LABOUR PARTY ARE NO LONGER TRUSTED BY THE WORKING CLASS MAN TO SPEAK FOR THEM.   

Just as potent is the idea that the liberal elite are so worried about causing offence, a huge mass off people turn a blind eye to women being treated as second class citizens under their noses. Again, here there is an issue, but no more so than in Orthodox Judaism, or in fact any other orthodox religion. Tackling this is a religious issue, not just an Islamic one.

 

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY COMPARING ISLAMIC TREATMENT OF WOMEN TO THAT OF ORTHODOX JEWS. BLIMEY!! 

 

This is the second terrorist attack I've had the sad previlage to be near. The first one I saw destroy lives and take a sister away from a friend. In comparison, this was a shrug of the shoulders for London, this is not to not to belittle the deaths. However, if this fuels further racial hatred, then that is giving Khalid Mashood's actions a legacy that it does not warrant.

 

 

I SEE ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF ANY RACIAL HATRED HAVING OCCURRED SINCE THE WESTMINSTER ATTACK, I SEE A NATION THAT HAS EXPRESSED GRIEF AND SADNESS AND AN AMAZING TOGETHERNESS AND RESPECTFUL BALANCED BEHAVIOUR.

 

IT SEEMS TO BE THAT LEFTISTS TURN OUT TO PROTEST AGAINST A PERCIEVED FACISTS THREAT AND THAT THEY FEEL THAT THE UK IS IN DANGER OF TURNING INTO THE NEXT THIRD REICH WHEN THE EVIDENCE SHOWS WHAT A TOLERANT, RESPECTFUL AND NON ALARMIST NATION WE ARE DESPIITE THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST ATTACKS SINCE 2000.  WHAT A BUNCH OF FUCKING BALLOONS THESE FOLK ARE. 

 

Apologies for the capital letters. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Mounts Kipper

[mickbrown]

Imitation is the best form of flattery

[Not in Crawley]

MK - thanks for the response, I could go over the points, but I've sort of already made them to the ones you've written. I'm afraid it doesn't work if you argue against a fact (such as Islamic terrorism being a relatively new thing) by just saying, its not, so there. Also ignoring how fear of immigration directly relates to economic downturns ignores the lessons of history from the American Depression to Germany after WW1. Again, just saying they are not related, is not an argument, its just, well, a falsehood.

 

I was also trying to make the point that every religion has had or has problematic relationships with equality. Different scales admittedly but whether it be the issue of female priests to the wearing of wigs and covering of bodies by orthodox Jewish women, Islam isn't alone in its backward views on women's equality. Not calling out the other's on this points demonstrates a predisposition to pick on one specific target, which I believe is called discrimination.

 

 

As for everyone who you don't agree with being balloons, its probably not the best way to make your point.

 

But thanks for the response, at least you engage and create into a debate even though I don't agree with you, that is healthy. 

[bwfcfan5]

Can't disagree with that but you need to also consider the bloke was known for his extremist links. Not viable to trace every single nut job I agree but the root cause of the problem, and admitting it exists without offending the liberals, news addressing head on.

 

Sometimes you have to admit you have a problem before it can be fixed. Too many don't think there is one. That denial will festering sore for the next generation until sensible people of all communities unite and deal with the problem but there is fucks chance of that when too many different people have too many different agendas. There too many good Muslims to allow the bad ones to fuck it up but for whatever reason it's simply not happening.

 

As I said the other day which hasn't been answered by the liberals, the Sihks Hindus and Orientals seem to integrate well without issue, maybe they're doing something different?

 

Was he known for his extremist links? 

 

As for the last line, what measures are you using for integrating well? Also Masood, wasn't integrating. He was British. If we look at the fact he was born here, raised here and committed a number of violent crimes here as a Christian and a Muslim, if anything, is it not more relevant to look at the failings in British society that caused this? It isn't like he pitched up here 3 weeks ago. 

[Smiffs]

Was he known for his extremist links? 

 

As for the last line, what measures are you using for integrating well? Also Masood, wasn't integrating. He was British. If we look at the fact he was born here, raised here and committed a number of violent crimes here as a Christian and a Muslim, if anything, is it not more relevant to look at the failings in British society that caused this? It isn't like he pitched up here 3 weeks ago. 

 

The official line is currently no. However I'm sure I'm not the only person linking his conversion to Islam with mowing down innocent civilians on the streets of London. I don't think he did it because he got a parking ticket. Highly likely the work of a lone nutjob, equally likely to be done in some twisted manner related to his beliefs.

 

Home grown nutjobs are here to stay and yes possibly a failing of our own society. Why would a British citizen want to cause fear and harm to British society? Do they not feel part of it? Have they been radicalised? Are they just fucking unstable and have found an excuse to excerise that mental behaviour? Either way, that 'issue' needs removing from the 'immigration issue' by the right wing as its harming progress and putting the fire out with petrol.

 

In terms of integrating well, well probably something to do with not seeing many radical Hindus causing terror on the streets of Britain is a starting point.

[Mounts Kipper]

MK - thanks for the response, I could go over the points, but I've sort of already made them to the ones you've written. I'm afraid it doesn't work if you argue against a fact (such as Islamic terrorism being a relatively new thing) by just saying, its not, so there. Also ignoring how fear of immigration directly relates to economic downturns ignores the lessons of history from the American Depression to Germany after WW1. Again, just saying they are not related, is not an argument, its just, well, a falsehood.

 

ISLAM HAS KILLED FOLK FOR CENTURIES IN THE NAME OF CONVERSION AND FOR NO OTHER REASON AND IT IS STILL GOING ON TODAY. NO ONE FEARS IMMIGRATION PER SE BUT IT HAS TO BE CONTROLLED AND REGULATED  SO THAT WE CAN COPE WITH THE INFLUX.

 

 WE ARE SO FAR FROM THE SITUATION IN GERMANY DURING WW1 OR THE GREAT DEPRESSION THAT I SEE ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE IN YOUR POINTS, WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE AND NOW IS QUITE CLEARLY A WORLD OF AWAY FROM THE EXAMPLES YOU QUOTED, REGARDING IMMIGRATION WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF IMMIGRATION NOR SHOULD WE BE, BUT IT IS RIGHT AND PROPER THAT WE SHOULD HAVE BORDER CONTROLS AND IF NECESSARY BE ABLE TO LIMIT IMMIGRATION AND TO STOP POTENTIAL PROBLEM IMMIGRANTS BE THAT TERRORIST/CRIMINALS.    

 

 

I was also trying to make the point that every religion has had or has problematic relationships with equality. Different scales admittedly but whether it be the issue of female priests to the wearing of wigs and covering of bodies by orthodox Jewish women, Islam isn't alone in its backward views on women's equality. Not calling out the other's on this points demonstrates a predisposition to pick on one specific target, which I believe is called discrimination.

 

THAT MIGHT BE SO, BUT ITS CLEAR THAT ISLAM HAS THE WORST RECORD AND WE SHOULD NOT SHY AWAY FROM SAYING JUST THAT. IT IS NOT RACIST TO BRING UP THE FACT THAT ISLAM HAS THE WORST RECORD FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES AGAINST WOMEN.  

 

As for everyone who you don't agree with being balloons, its probably not the best way to make your point.

 

IT SEEMS ITS FASHIONABLE TO DEMONSTRATE AGAINST FOLK WHO VOTED BREXIT OR EXPRESS CONCERN AT UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION AND TERRORIST ATTACKS BY MUSLIMS, IN THE WARPED HEADSET OF THE DEMONSTRATORS THAT THESE FOLK ARE FASCIST/RACIST WHEN IT IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE. THE BITTER AND BILE SPEWED IS DISGRACEFUL THE ANTI FASCISTS ARE NOW THE REAL FASCISTS. I MIGHT MORE ACCURATELY HAVE DESCRIBED THEM AS LOONS.

 

but thanks for the response, at least you engage and create into a debate even though I don't agree with you, that is healthy. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Mounts Kipper

[Not in Crawley]

Interesting points.

 

You've still not tackled the fact that Islamic Terrorism is geopolitically a new thing. Yes, the Ottoman's slaughtered thousands as they conquered vast swathes of Europe in the 13th Century, but that's not relevant to today. Over the course of world history every religion has slaughtered people in their thousands, but you don't see Catholics vilified for the actions of Mary Queen of Scots. If you don't look at the political not the religious issues you are always going to come up short for answers to the problem other than send people back (to where?) and control the massive 5% of the population.

 

Economic downturns have always led to concerns over immigration, and a rise in nativism. The depth of the depression isn't the relevant factor here. There are examples throughout world history. Those were just two.

 

On the women point, yes any equality has to be tackled, Islam per say over history isn't any worse than others. By point this out, you aren't shying away from an inconvenient truths or calling racism. I was pointing out its discriminatory to focus this issue only one one particular group.

 

Debate has, funnily enough always been fashionable. Its how human's discuss things. No one is calling any names (well, from my side I'm hopefully not), just questioning some of your conclusions. That's not being a loon, that's just a discussion.

[Mounts Kipper]

Interesting points.

 

You've still not tackled the fact that Islamic Terrorism is geopolitically a new thing. Yes, the Ottoman's slaughtered thousands as they conquered vast swathes of Europe in the 13th Century, but that's not relevant to today. Over the course of world history every religion has slaughtered people in their thousands, but you don't see Catholics vilified for the actions of Mary Queen of Scots. If you don't look at the political not the religious issues you are always going to come up short for answers to the problem other than send people back (to where?) and control the massive 5% of the population.

 

ISLAM WAS KILLING PEOPLE WAY BACK THEN I  WOULD CALL THAT STATE TERRORISM (THEREFORE HOW CAN IT BE A NEW PHENOMENON? WHILE OTHER RELIGIONS HAVE STOPPED THAT BEHAVOUR, ISLAM STILL PRACTICES THE SAME MURDEROUS BEHAVIOUR ALL OVER THE WORLD

.

Economic downturns have always led to concerns over immigration, and a rise in nativism. The depth of the depression isn't the relevant factor here. There are examples throughout world history. Those were just two.

 

THE LEVEL OF IMMIGRATION INTO THE UK TODAY IS UNPARALLED IN HISTORY AND THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE AND THE SUBSEQUENT FAILURE OF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE TO COPE.  CONTROLLED IMIGRATION IS GOOD AND NEEDED FOR US TO CONTINUE TO THRIVE, WE ARE NOT A RACIST SOCIETY WE ARE NOT TURNING TO RACISM BECAUSE OF AN ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, IT IS SIMPLY THE SHEER SPEED AND SCALE OF IMMIGRATION THAT LED FOLK TO VOTE FOR BREXIT SO THAT WE COULD REGAIN CONTROL OF OUR BORDERS AND IMMIGRATION POLICY. ECONOMIC DOWNTURN HAS NOT LED TO THE UK BECOMING MORE RACIST. THIS IS WHERE YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS IS COMPLETELY FLAWED.     

 

 

On the women point, yes any equality has to be tackled, Islam per say over history isn't any worse than others. By point this out, you aren't shying away from an inconvenient truths or calling racism. I was pointing out its discriminatory to focus this issue only one one particular group.

 

IT NEEDS TACKLING ACROSS ALL RELIGIONS AND RACES HOWEVER I WILL POINT OUT AND DO NOT CARE WHO I UPSET  IT IS FACT THAT ISLAM HAS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.  (I WILL POINT OUT THIS IS A FOOTBALL SITE CALLING OUT DISCRMINATORY WTF)

 

 

Debate has, funnily enough always been fashionable. Its how human's discuss things. No one is calling any names (well, from my side I'm hopefully not), just questioning some of your conclusions. That's not being a loon, that's just a discussion.

 

YES IT IS DEBATE BUT TO CONTINUALLY PROTEST HERE IN THE UK WITH A LARGE AMOUNT OF VITRIOL AGAINST A PERCIEVED THREAT THAT IN REALITY HARDLY EXISTS HERE IN THE UK TAKES A DEGREE OF LUNACY. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Mounts Kipper

[Casino]

Christian terrorists have killed more people in the U.K. Than any other religious group

 

Kill em all

[Carlos]

Thank fuck people have never killed in the name of Christianity.

[mickbrown]

I can't read posts in capitals without imagining the poster goggled eyed with rage, drooling on their keyboard.

[Mounts Kipper]

Christian terrorists have killed more people in the U.K. Than any other religious group

 

Kill em all

 

As we were mainly Christian nation for a couple of thousands of years it suprises me that you could post something so stupid. maybe it shouldn't.

[Whites man]

Christian terrorists have killed more people in the U.K. Than any other religious group

 

Kill em all

Terrorists who were Christian is a different matter to Christian terrorists.

[Youri McAnespie]

There are anti-fascist volunteers and others of what may be broadly termed 'the left' from all over Europe fighting ISIL in places like Rojava...One unit is named after a Wanderersways favourite - Bob Crow.

 

This runs counter to the 'blind eye to Islamist fascists' and 'lefties hug jihadis' Tropes.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Youri McAnespie

[Mounts Kipper]

Thank fuck people have never killed in the name of Christianity.

 

To me as an atheist all religions are shit however some are shitter than others in the religion killing stakes league table I think there is only one winner.