Mounts Kipper Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: So are you expecting the negotiations will start afresh? If parliament throw the deal out and as we head towards WTO the EU have no alternative other than to make concessions otherwise they lose 39 billion. That’ll go down well at EU budget meetings and how do the nett contributors sell higher taxes to the public back home. Edited November 16, 2018 by Mounts Kipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweep Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 51 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: We will get a deal and I’m predicting a better deal than is currently on the table. So to be clear, if we did go with the deal that is currently on the table (which I don't think we will, as our own Parliament won't pass it) - would you be happy, and does it stand anywhere near what you have said you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Sweep said: So to be clear, if we did go with the deal that is currently on the table (which I don't think we will, as our own Parliament won't pass it) - would you be happy, and does it stand anywhere near what you have said you want? I think the deal on the table has the basis of a decent deal but as I understand it, it’s is not acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: If parliament throw the deal out and as we head towards WTO the EU have no alternative other than to make concessions otherwise they lose 39 billion. That’ll go down well at EU budget meetings and how do the nett contributors sell higher taxes to the public back home. So when Tusk says they are preparing for no deal you don't believe him? Oh, and by the way, we might be forced into paying some or all of the £39b if we want a trade deal with the EU after March 2019 or are we just going to forget about trading with the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bolty58 Posted November 16, 2018 Members Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: So when Tusk says they are preparing for no deal you don't believe him? Oh, and by the way, we might be forced into paying some or all of the £39b if we want a trade deal with the EU after March 2019 or are we just going to forget about trading with the EU? If we don't deal with the EU, of the two trading partners, who will be the biggest losers? Think about it. Hopefully, a light bulb just came on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, bolty58 said: If we don't deal with the EU, of the two trading partners, who will be the biggest losers? Think about it. Hopefully, a light bulb just came on. Us because the EU can source things from the rest of the EU. As spiders story has shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalcolmW Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 36 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: I agree. She was horrific. From the moment she rambled on in a shrill voice for too long and Dimbleby tried to give someone else a chance and she said "I know you don't like women speaking" I took an instant dislike to her. She didn't seem to realise that nobody wanted to hear her blaming the Labour party for a Tory made mess. Glad she was jeered for that. Would that be the Dimbleby of the Bullingdon Club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweep Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, bolty58 said: If we don't deal with the EU, of the two trading partners, who will be the biggest losers? Think about it. Hopefully, a light bulb just came on. There is a deficit yes, but we're talking about a single country against an entire block - the trade deficit with the EU isn't evenly split across all the member nations, so don't assume that it's a given that they will all agree to acquiesce to our demands. They can arguably also source much of what they buy from the UK from other EU members. Whilst the EU is a massive block, all of the component parts would have to agree to a trade deal, and we all know that can take a long time Hopefully, a light bulb just came on Edited November 16, 2018 by Sweep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, frank_spencer said: Us because the EU can source things from the rest of the EU. As spiders story has shown. Bolty's response beggars belief... I rest my case your honour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, MalcolmW said: Would that be the Dimbleby of the Bullingdon Club? Not sure what relevance that has here. He interrupts everyone when they ramble on too long. She was far too aggressive for the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Sweep said: There is a deficit yes, but we're talking about a single country against an entire block - the trade deficit with the EU isn't evenly split across all the member nations, so don't assume that it's a given that they will all agree to acquiesce to our demands. They can arguably also source much of what they buy from the UK from other EU members. Whilst the EU is a massive block, all of the component parts would have to agree to a trade deal, and we all know that can take a long time Hopefully, a light bulb just came on So imagine one of your biggest customers disputes an invoice and refuses to pay it but comes back the following week and says i am still not paying the disputed invoice but we would still like to trade. I know what i would say knowing i can get all the gear elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 How this decision was ever given to the general public is beyond comprehension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc505 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, gonzo said: How this decision was ever given to the general public is beyond comprehension I thought Bernard Sumner was from Salford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, Sweep said: Hopefully, a light bulb just came on I doubt it. On food alone we import around a quarter of our total from the EU. That is a considerable problem if supplies are suddenly stopped or delayed at the ports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Tory whips have had all their engagements cancelled today. Does that mean there are now enough letters from Tory MPs calling for confidence vote in May? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Does that mean there are now enough letters from Tory MPs calling for confidence vote in May? Again - why leave it until May? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted November 16, 2018 Site Supporter Share Posted November 16, 2018 5 hours ago, boltondiver said: A few issues Many will not understand, or be willing to commit the time/effort to understanding, the deal. How many of those screeching for a 2nd referendum (that's what it is) voted to leave? Not many would be my assessment. It is about staying in, delaying. Yep. Not one has said a second referendum with no deal and a selection of deals as options only. Every one wants remaining as an option. Clearly just splitting the leave votes to achieve their real aims. Anyway, Bollocks to that, markets and pound bounced back as the deal gets scrutinised. Rolls Royce have now said it's decent and to get on with this. There's a few weeks until the meaningful vote, during which time a bit more flesh will appear on the bones. It seems as industry is starting to warm to the deal and labour will have to be careful if they block it en masse, as this could be spun against them come the next election. Mounts; I agree that we'd have liked a stronger deal, but I don't see enough time to get it. Especially given industry's response. Perhaps, it could be strengthened over decades to come, but on balance, I see it as apposite to take it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birch-chorley Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said: If parliament throw the deal out and as we head towards WTO the EU have no alternative other than to make concessions otherwise they lose 39 billion. That’ll go down well at EU budget meetings and how do the nett contributors sell higher taxes to the public back home. This £39bn i don’t think it’s quite the carrot that you think it is for the EU dont forget we generally get around half of our contributions back with EU investments into the U.K. which will be honoured as long as we honour our commitments. So it’s more like £20bn Lets put that into context, it’s less than 10% of what it cost the EU to bail Greece out of the shit The much bigger carrot is the ongoing trade between the EU and U.K. From what I can see it’s about £600bn a year in total (combined). Let’s assume that a messy BREXIT may hit that by 10% either way. Our exports to the EU would drop by £27bn a year and they would see a £34bn drop in exports to us. Whilst in cash terms they would appear to lose more it’s a much smaller % of their £1.8tn exports (2%), on the other hand £27bn is around 8% of our £370bn exports Effectively we would be hit 4 times as hard as the EU with a ‘messy BREXIT’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 5 hours ago, boltondiver said: A few issues Many will not understand, or be willing to commit the time/effort to understanding, the deal. How many of those screeching for a 2nd referendum (that's what it is) voted to leave? Not many would be my assessment. It is about staying in, delaying. See this is a classic Brexiteer response. "Can't have a second referendum because people won't understand". But they were up in arms if anyone (even a leave voter) suggests some didn't know what they were voting for in the last referendum. There were leave voters on QT last night calling for a 2nd referendum. And is it about staying? Yes. Because its quite clear, crystal clear, that staying in is MILES better than the deal we have got. So you can ask voters whether they want to stay in, take the deal or leave on WTO rules. Because I would challenge anyone to suggest that leaving on this deal is worth it. Its a political fudge to try and appease everyone whilst minimising damage. But what is the point of it? Either leave properly or stay. Because if we leave properly the promises/lies of Brexiteers will be tested once and for all. If we stay we avoid making everything worse for absolutely no reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Yep. Not one has said a second referendum with no deal and a selection of deals as options only. Every one wants remaining as an option. Clearly just splitting the leave votes to achieve their real aims. Anyway, Bollocks to that, markets and pound bounced back as the deal gets scrutinised. Rolls Royce have now said it's decent and to get on with this. There's a few weeks until the meaningful vote, during which time a bit more flesh will appear on the bones. It seems as industry is starting to warm to the deal and labour will have to be careful if they block it en masse, as this could be spun against them come the next election. Mounts; I agree that we'd have liked a stronger deal, but I don't see enough time to get it. Especially given industry's response. Perhaps, it could be strengthened over decades to come, but on balance, I see it as apposite to take it now. Industry are basically saying "this is better than no deal". Industry also wants us not to leave at all. Are you going to listen to industry properly and remain? Or only when it suits you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birch-chorley Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 We can’t have another referendum, if happily never have another again, ever! It’s as simple as this deal or no deal (take or leave the odd minor tweak) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted November 16, 2018 Site Supporter Share Posted November 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Industry are basically saying "this is better than no deal". Industry also wants us not to leave at all. Are you going to listen to industry properly and remain? Or only when it suits you? It hasn't. I has said the lack of information and uncertainty is their problem. They've been seeking clarification which is fair enough. It has now been provided. Any industry is made up of employees, who in a small majority voted to leave. As such it's the government's job to sort that which they have been doing. Whether that's been done well or not will be discussed for ever, but a deal has been reached. Are you going to listen to the population or ignore the majority because it doesn't suit you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 24 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: It hasn't. I has said the lack of information and uncertainty is their problem. They've been seeking clarification which is fair enough. It has now been provided. Any industry is made up of employees, who in a small majority voted to leave. As such it's the government's job to sort that which they have been doing. Whether that's been done well or not will be discussed for ever, but a deal has been reached. Are you going to listen to the population or ignore the majority because it doesn't suit you? So we should take what is universally seen as a "bad deal" because its "all we've managed to get" and industry wants "certainty". That's a weak argument when the majority of industry wanted to remain. We've three choices. Take a bad deal that will cost the economy and leave us weaker than remaining (we know this for a fact since May has refused to say we'll be better off with this deal than now), take no deal which the government estimates to be a huge financial and logistical disaster, or remain. Given what we now know - we should ask the British people what they want to do. Its all quite clear as a choice. Because those who voted for Brexit are most certainly not happy with this deal. So one can therefore deduce that it ISN'T what they voted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter barryk32 Posted November 16, 2018 Site Supporter Share Posted November 16, 2018 Save me looking through 10000 posts, could someone point me to a list of whats been agreed, I cant seem to find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Casino Posted November 16, 2018 Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2018 3 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said: Tory whips have had all their engagements cancelled today. Does that mean there are now enough letters from Tory MPs calling for confidence vote in May? despite your best efforts its pretty clear you are lapping up this obvious split in the tory camp dont kid yourselves corbyns mob is any more united Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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