Politics

[Spider]

1 hour ago, leigh white said:

Wrong, since 1947 Cons shut 582 and Lab 371.

371.

Fucking traitorous bastards.

[MickyD]

We were talking particularly about Thatcher's part in the downfall of UK mining.

Found this:

http://peoplescharter.org/pit-closures-were-a-labour-policy-wilson-shut-twice-as-many-as-thatcher/

[Cheese]

10 hours ago, Casino said:

Talk us through living under thatcher

I was a child so I can't remember much about it. That's why I'm asking. What did she do that improved your life? 

[MickyD]

21 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I was a child so I can't remember much about it. That's why I'm asking. What did she do that improved your life? 

Put it this way, I look at Corbyn as a potential leader of the country and, going back 36 years, wonder what he'd have done if Argentina had invaded The Falkland Islands while he was PM.

I reckon he'd have reached for a pen and try to negotiate a deal where Argentina get to keep the islands. Thank fuck Thatcher had bigger bollocks.

[Guest]

She was a leader.

She created a climate within which people felt more able to take responsibility for their own lives and future.

Taxes were reduced, especially from the hopeless 98%, rewarding risk taking.

She single handedly picked up an ailing country.

There were casualties, I get that, but she was exactly what was needed at the time.

Edited December 9, 2018 by boltondiver

[Cheese]

15 minutes ago, MickyD said:

Put it this way, I look at Corbyn as a potential leader of the country and, going back 36 years, wonder what he'd have done if Argentina had invaded The Falkland Islands while he was PM.

I reckon he'd have reached for a pen and try to negotiate a deal where Argentina get to keep the islands. Thank fuck Thatcher had bigger bollocks.

So people admire Thatcher so much because she wasn't Jeremy Corbyn? 

[MickyD]

Is that what I said?

 

[Guest]

The straightforward Jeremy on the EU

 

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/

[birch-chorley]

If Corbyn gets in an re nationalises the Energy companies how many tens of thousands will he need to make redundant? You won’t need sales for a start as it will be a closed shop, loads more will lose their jobs as it’s all consolidated 

Apparently it’s fine for him to do it if he is bringing down energy prices for all but wasn’t that exactly what thatcher did in the 80’s? Refused to subsidies expensive British Coal when we could buy it cheaper elsewhere 

For some reason we romanticise industries like Steel, Mining and fishing even though they deliver fuck all to the country in the grand scheme of things (relatively speaking)

Yet many don’t give a fuck if service sector jobs like Banking, Sales or Marketing are at risk that drive a huge proportion of our economy 

[Spider]

43 minutes ago, Cheese said:

So people admire Thatcher so much because she wasn't Jeremy Corbyn? 

Even by your standards that’s the statement of someone losing an argument.

numerous examples of how Thatcher improved a great deal of the UK have been stated but you’re choosing to try and be smart.

She took on the unions and transformed them from the overpowering, backward dinosaurs they were- for many, that would have been enough.

She also oversaw a huge a period of (occasionally over flamboyant) prosperity. 

She wasn’t perfect, the poll tax was a naff idea but on the whole, she had a quality required of any leader. She was firm of conviction and she led.

also, she was a she. The likes of Scargill hated being beaten by a lass.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Spider

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Spider said:

 the poll tax was a naff idea

 

Oh. I thought it was a good idea, that each should pay towards services, but only a nutjob would have introduced it.

[Spider]

1 minute ago, boltondiver said:

Oh. I thought it was a good idea, that each should pay towards services, but only a nutjob would have introduced it.

The theory was ok, the execution of it was dreadful.

Its worth noting that she always had good ministers around her. Theresa May is very much on her own by comparison which makes her seem either very strong or flailing.

[birch-chorley]

Thatcher had the benefit of selling everything off though don’t forget. How much would BT, British Gas etc be worth if they could be privatised now? Not to mention the right to buy money 

Any government has a fighting chance with that sort of money coming in 

Gordon Brown gets dogs abuse for selling off the gold, in reality we had a tiny amount that equates to two bits of fuck all 

Especially when compared with Thatchers sell off of the silver 

[Cheese]

2 hours ago, Spider said:

Even by your standards that’s the statement of someone losing an argument.

numerous examples of how Thatcher improved a great deal of the UK have been stated but you’re choosing to try and be smart.

She took on the unions and transformed them from the overpowering, backward dinosaurs they were- for many, that would have been enough.

She also oversaw a huge a period of (occasionally over flamboyant) prosperity. 

She wasn’t perfect, the poll tax was a naff idea but on the whole, she had a quality required of any leader. She was firm of conviction and she led.

also, she was a she. The likes of Scargill hated being beaten by a lass.

 

An argument? Where have I argued? 

[Cheese]

3 hours ago, MickyD said:

Is that what I said?

 

Not exactly, but you brought up your dislike for Corbyn when I asked what you liked about Thatcher. I don't get it.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

We may now be seeing benefits of not having a significant reliance on coal, both environmentally and economically.

Looking at Poland and Serbia for example, they're miles back.

[Boby Brno]

3 hours ago, boltondiver said:

Oh. I thought it was a good idea, that each should pay towards services, but only a nutjob would have introduced it.

Correct. At the time me and my wife were living in a typical 3 bed semi paying £250 a year in rates (yes, £250) the widowed lady next door was also paying £250 a year. 

Surely it was fairer for each of us to pay £166 each? That was the premise anyway.

It wasn’t popular and we were no worse off as a result even though I thought it was a good idea.

[MancWanderer]

5 hours ago, MickyD said:

We were talking particularly about Thatcher's part in the downfall of UK mining.

Found this:

http://peoplescharter.org/pit-closures-were-a-labour-policy-wilson-shut-twice-as-many-as-thatcher/

Really interesting article that Micky. Despite it's obvious pro-Thatcher bias, it raises a number of salient points, in particular (and I'm paraphrasing here) the clinging on to the industrial revolution (because we invented it) and the lack of foresight in "retraining" to move forward with technology

For those old enough to remember the 3-day week, power cuts, and the like. Mick McGahey demanding 35% pay rises for the miners yet refusing to amend outdated working practices. Red Robbo crippling the British car industry that was producing wrecks like the Austin Allegro and Morris Marina that started rusting within a year of purchase

For me, regarding Thatcher, you had to be there, and living in the time, to truly understand why and how she came to power. Yes, she was divisive, but she needed to be because, in general, the British public was sick and tired of being held hostage by the unions. Sorry, let me clarify, sick and tired of being held hostage by self-serving union leaders who were feathering their own nests. Those union leaders were cunts. They had a workforce who had to follow them (closed shop anyone - can you imagine that now?) and it was the working class man, the miner, the docker, the printer, etc, that suffered, not the leaders

Thatcher changed things for the better, but what she failed spectacularly to do was put any forward plan in place for the unskilled worker, and I have every sympathy for people like leigh-white (if I'm understanding his post correctly). I lived in Sheffield during the miners strike and saw the abject poverty suddenly inflicted on mining families with no plan to help them.

Mrs Manc's uncle was a Doncaster miner - fuck me, he and his family suffered - but all he wanted to do was work but couldn't thanks to Scargill. He proposed many working changes to make things more efficient and cost-effective but was basically told to fuck off. And then the pit shut!!!

Thatcher made many mistakes but she knew what needed to be done and she just went and did it which in hindsight was the best thing imo

I look now at the Brexit arguments and think that is nowt compared to Thatcher, the miners, The Falklands

Corbyn? Shit Arthur Scargill. You're just a shit Arthur Scargill. Shit Arthur Scargill. You're just a shiiiiiit Arthur Scargill

[Spider]

2 minutes ago, MancWanderer said:

Really interesting article that Micky. Despite it's obvious pro-Thatcher bias, it raises a number of salient points, in particular (and I'm paraphrasing here) the clinging on to the industrial revolution (because we invented it) and the lack of foresight in "retraining" to move forward with technology

For those old enough to remember the 3-day week, power cuts, and the like. Mick McGahey demanding 35% pay rises for the miners yet refusing to amend outdated working practices. Red Robbo crippling the British car industry that was producing wrecks like the Austin Allegro and Morris Marina that started rusting within a year of purchase

For me, regarding Thatcher, you had to be there, and living in the time, to truly understand why and how she came to power. Yes, she was divisive, but she needed to be because, in general, the British public was sick and tired of being held hostage by the unions. Sorry, let me clarify, sick and tired of being held hostage by self-serving union leaders who were feathering their own nests. Those union leaders were cunts. They had a workforce who had to follow them (closed shop anyone - can you imagine that now?) and it was the working class man, the miner, the docker, the printer, etc, that suffered, not the leaders

Thatcher changed things for the better, but what she failed spectacularly to do was put any forward plan in place for the unskilled worker, and I have every sympathy for people like leigh-white (if I'm understanding his post correctly). I lived in Sheffield during the miners strike and saw the abject poverty suddenly inflicted on mining families with no plan to help them.

Mrs Manc's uncle was a Doncaster miner - fuck me, he and his family suffered - but all he wanted to do was work but couldn't thanks to Scargill. He proposed many working changes to make things more efficient and cost-effective but was basically told to fuck off. And then the pit shut!!!

Thatcher made many mistakes but she knew what needed to be done and she just went and did it which in hindsight was the best thing imo

I look now at the Brexit arguments and think that is nowt compared to Thatcher, the miners, The Falklands

Corbyn? Shit Arthur Scargill. You're just a shit Arthur Scargill. Shit Arthur Scargill. You're just a shiiiiiit Arthur Scargill

Great post

[MalcolmW]

15 minutes ago, Boby Brno said:

Correct. At the time me and my wife were living in a typical 3 bed semi paying £250 a year in rates (yes, £250) the widowed lady next door was also paying £250 a year. 

Surely it was fairer for each of us to pay £166 each? That was the premise anyway.

It wasn’t popular and we were no worse off as a result even though I thought it was a good idea.

The fair and sensible way to have introduced it would have been to 'red circle' (i.e. freeze) the £250 for single occupancy until the balancing point was reached. So if the £500 total for the 2 houses combined was increased by £20 each year this would be borne by the couple for several years. Thus your individual amounts would have been £135, increasing by £10 each year to £245, and then the following year £254 for all 3 of you.

Of course taking over a decade to complete implementation was a NoNo, but it was fair.

[MickyD]

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

Not exactly, but you brought up your dislike for Corbyn when I asked what you liked about Thatcher. I don't get it.

I just had another look at my post. You're very good at reading things and coming up with an alternative to what was said. I certainly didn't mention any dislike of Corbyn, I said I didn't believe he'd have taken the same stance as Thatcher had done when faced with an invasion of a British Protectorate. Read it again if you don't believe me.

 

5 hours ago, MickyD said:

Put it this way, I look at Corbyn as a potential leader of the country and, going back 36 years, wonder what he'd have done if Argentina had invaded The Falkland Islands while he was PM.

I reckon he'd have reached for a pen and try to negotiate a deal where Argentina get to keep the islands. Thank fuck Thatcher had bigger bollocks.

 

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, MickyD said:

I just had another look at my post. You're very good at reading things and coming up with an alternative to what was said. I certainly didn't mention any dislike of Corbyn, I said I didn't believe he'd have taken the same stance as Thatcher had done when faced with an invasion of a British Protectorate. Read it again if you don't believe me. 

Ok. Never mind 

[Boby Brno]

8 minutes ago, MalcolmW said:

The fair and sensible way to have introduced it would have been to 'red circle' (i.e. freeze) the £250 for single occupancy until the balancing point was reached. So if the £500 total for the 2 houses combined was increased by £20 each year this would be borne by the couple for several years. Thus your individual amounts would have been £135, increasing by £10 each year to £245, and then the following year £254 for all 3 of you.

Of course taking over a decade to complete implementation was a NoNo, but it was fair.

The way it was proposed (sampled in Scotland) was clumsy. When New Labour took over, they allowed local authorities to increase Council tax significantly higher than the failed Poll Tax would have done.

[Moon boy]

1 hour ago, MalcolmW said:

The fair and sensible way to have introduced it would have been to 'red circle' (i.e. freeze) the £250 for single occupancy until the balancing point was reached. So if the £500 total for the 2 houses combined was increased by £20 each year this would be borne by the couple for several years. Thus your individual amounts would have been £135, increasing by £10 each year to £245, and then the following year £254 for all 3 of you.

Of course taking over a decade to complete implementation was a NoNo, but it was fair.

Another issue was the fact that theRates/ Poll tax/Council tax was to pay for local ammeties so the old lady living on her own who had previously bought her Council house was paying full rate whilst the family of five workers living next door in the Council house, using five times the ammeties, weren’t.

[Not in Crawley]

7 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

If Corbyn gets in an re nationalises the Energy companies how many tens of thousands will he need to make redundant? You won’t need sales for a start as it will be a closed shop, loads more will lose their jobs as it’s all consolidated 

Apparently it’s fine for him to do it if he is bringing down energy prices for all but wasn’t that exactly what thatcher did in the 80’s? Refused to subsidies expensive British Coal when we could buy it cheaper elsewhere 

For some reason we romanticise industries like Steel, Mining and fishing even though they deliver fuck all to the country in the grand scheme of things (relatively speaking)

Yet many don’t give a fuck if service sector jobs like Banking, Sales or Marketing are at risk that drive a huge proportion of our economy 

At last, someone standing up for us poor, beleaguered marketeers. Everyday working harder to get more money out of people’s pockets if they can afford it or not. Looking at ways to make the most money from minimum spent. Avoiding any moral compass at all costs if it effects sales.

To be honest, I’m waiting for our Orgreave