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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

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miamiwhite

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5 hours ago, Spider said:

I was asked by a Spaniard to explain Brexit over the weekend (got family that live there).

TI asked what they thought had happened. And here it is:

Thick, low paid, poverty stricken working class people were duped into voting to leave on the promise that loads of jobs and money would be made available to them soon after. They held to their stereotype as racist knuckledraggers who want rid of brown people and blue passports.

 

Middle classes and above voted to stay partly out of wanting to get likes on social media and partly because they didn't want to appear working class or offend anyone. They have a sense of misplaced snobbery about their belief that they sit on a moral high ground and like to sneer at the jingoistic, fuck-thick paupers who prefer union jack tattoos to Maori ones.

 

The Spaniards (he knows at any rate) are largely sympathetic. They don't really know how a vote there would go, and are interested to see how this pans out.

 

You're Spanish mate is as impressive with his use of the English language as he is insightful into the british mindset of the Brexiteer

Sounds more to me like the Spaniard explained to you what Brexit was

Did you tell him you voted out?

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19 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

You're Spanish mate is as impressive with his use of the English language as he is insightful into the british mindset of the Brexiteer

Sounds more to me like the Spaniard explained to you what Brexit was

Did you tell him you voted out?

Obviously I’m paraphrasing.

he knows how I voted.

He’d vote out too.

they do have opinions.

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1 hour ago, Casino said:

So, are we saying that ex mps who may well have a far better grasp on things than us lot can't express an opinion?

No one has said that.

They should stop hiding and say what they really believe. Then stop agitating in the back ground and get behind achieving a suitable deal or butt out and leave the discussions to those with a genuine interest in sorting it out.

I heard something recently about Blair, that if true, would render him one of the last people entitled to comment.

I'm not going to divulge, as it was made with no evidence to support it. Alas that evidence won't be available until we're all dead.

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9 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Corbyn tables vote of no confidence. He must be confident of the numbers

apparently not a vote against the government

 

how strange, bit of nothing

Edited by boltondiver
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I really do wish Tony Blair would piss right off, his stupidity has lost the life n limbs of so many servicemen and ladies through his sheer incompetence and trust of the labour support.  when is he going to go back under his bolder and leave it to the professionals?   We’ve even got Gordon Brown rearing his ugly fat gold selling head , spouting off now, that party really is shite.

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I note the increased media coverage of the so called 'peoples vote' (read Second Referendum) and must admit to being curious about how this would be perceived (betrayal of democracy etc.), what the result would be (no doubt some Leave voters would convert but also would some previous Remain voters). I am sort of half wishing it happens now just to settle my curiosity.

Purely from a personal standpoint, I would most likely be better off if we stayed in but that would be short term thinking rather than facing up to the long term prospects of what seems to me to be the inevitable collapse of a failed federal political experiment. Only a matter of time.

Leaving seems to hold much healthier prospects of long term gain but I would not be one experiencing the short term pain.

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2 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

I note the increased media coverage of the so called 'peoples vote' (read Second Referendum) and must admit to being curious about how this would be perceived (betrayal of democracy etc.), what the result would be (no doubt some Leave voters would convert but also would some previous Remain voters). I am sort of half wishing it happens now just to settle my curiosity.

Purely from a personal standpoint, I would most likely be better off if we stayed in but that would be short term thinking rather than facing up to the long term prospects of what seems to me to be the inevitable collapse of a failed federal political experiment. Only a matter of time.

Leaving seems to hold much healthier prospects of long term gain but I would not be one experiencing the short term pain.

What the fuck. Has Bolty had a fall and banged his head or something? 

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7 hours ago, leigh white said:

Played a blinder, let's see if the 117 tory's who voted against her will do it again. No chance, party before people.

The 117 who voted against her in the previous vote of confidence did so in a No Whipp, private ballot. Do they have the courage to do it in a public everyone-knows-how-you-voted ballot?

Somehow, I doubt Corbyn would get all of the 117

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6 hours ago, bolty58 said:

I note the increased media coverage of the so called 'peoples vote' (read Second Referendum) and must admit to being curious about how this would be perceived (betrayal of democracy etc.), what the result would be (no doubt some Leave voters would convert but also would some previous Remain voters). I am sort of half wishing it happens now just to settle my curiosity.

Purely from a personal standpoint, I would most likely be better off if we stayed in but that would be short term thinking rather than facing up to the long term prospects of what seems to me to be the inevitable collapse of a failed federal political experiment. Only a matter of time.

Leaving seems to hold much healthier prospects of long term gain but I would not be one experiencing the short term pain.

Kent? Is that you?

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6 hours ago, bolty58 said:

I note the increased media coverage of the so called 'peoples vote' (read Second Referendum) and must admit to being curious about how this would be perceived (betrayal of democracy etc.), what the result would be (no doubt some Leave voters would convert but also would some previous Remain voters). I am sort of half wishing it happens now just to settle my curiosity.

Purely from a personal standpoint, I would most likely be better off if we stayed in but that would be short term thinking rather than facing up to the long term prospects of what seems to me to be the inevitable collapse of a failed federal political experiment. Only a matter of time.

Leaving seems to hold much healthier prospects of long term gain but I would not be one experiencing the short term pain.

 mounts & miami are going to kick you out of their gang for this

Edited by L/H White
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Oddly enough the figures have been pretty consistent since the referendum, support for either side has remained pretty much the same on polling. There’s been a slight change due to voter churn apparently, people becoming eligible whilst others die. Nothing to suggest there would be a landslide for either side.

And this here would leave still the same problem. Whoever ‘wins’ you’ve got to try and get essentially roughly half the population who didn’t agree with the vote to coalesce around something which they fundamentally disagree with. This isn’t about Brexit, it’s about the state of our nation and at the moment you’ve got a massively divided country - not on a single issue - but on a strategy for future development.

One side has seen global neo-liberalism work out very nicely for them thank you very much and wants the ideology of single country state-ism shrunk, the other as seen piss all benefits to a ever decreasing global except communities broken up and central government spending lavished on those areas where global service economy is the focal point and does not want to survive on handouts from European funds. 

Unless there was a big swing way it’s going to still be an issue - maybe one without such a harsh economic outlook - but a major issue nonetheless.

What Brexit is doing is eating up a lot of government time naturally, which doesn’t help fix the issue above - in fact it exacerbates it both economically and within the public discourse.

Which is why again, referendums are not a course country’s generally go down, but whilst a second referendum might economically bring more stability, it’s going to put a plaster over the real current problems in our nation. We need to resolve the imbalance in nationwide investment (and sadly Mounts, it’s UK governments that have failed in this task over generations - nothing to do with the EU)  look at the idea of our nation state and what it’s place is in the modern world, stop relying on misplaced ideas of empire and yes address the issues of immigration, rationally. A place like Bolton should simply not be just behind cities such as Glasgow for housing refugees, what did people think would happen putting the strain on an already struggling town? 

What might happen over a campaign we’ve yet to see, of course. But Brexit doesn’t and has never meant Brexit. What it shorthand for is a nation’s self identity and no amount of re-runs is going to address that in the short-term which is why no one really has an answer to our current issues, and the debate is endlessly continuing.

Even on football forums. Actually, especially on football forums.

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3 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Oddly enough the figures have been pretty consistent since the referendum, support for either side has remained pretty much the same on polling. There’s been a slight change due to voter churn apparently, people becoming eligible whilst others die. Nothing to suggest there would be a landslide for either side.

And this here would leave still the same problem. Whoever ‘wins’ you’ve got to try and get essentially roughly half the population who didn’t agree with the vote to coalesce around something which they fundamentally disagree with. This isn’t about Brexit, it’s about the state of our nation and at the moment you’ve got a massively divided country - not on a single issue - but on a strategy for future development.

One side has seen global neo-liberalism work out very nicely for them thank you very much and wants the ideology of single country state-ism shrunk, the other as seen piss all benefits to a ever decreasing global except communities broken up and central government spending lavished on those areas where global service economy is the focal point and does not want to survive on handouts from European funds. 

Unless there was a big swing way it’s going to still be an issue - maybe one without such a harsh economic outlook - but a major issue nonetheless.

What Brexit is doing is eating up a lot of government time naturally, which doesn’t help fix the issue above - in fact it exacerbates it both economically and within the public discourse.

Which is why again, referendums are not a course country’s generally go down, but whilst a second referendum might economically bring more stability, it’s going to put a plaster over the real current problems in our nation. We need to resolve the imbalance in nationwide investment (and sadly Mounts, it’s UK governments that have failed in this task over generations - nothing to do with the EU)  look at the idea of our nation state and what it’s place is in the modern world, stop relying on misplaced ideas of empire and yes address the issues of immigration, rationally. A place like Bolton should simply not be just behind cities such as Glasgow for housing refugees, what did people think would happen putting the strain on an already struggling town? 

What might happen over a campaign we’ve yet to see, of course. But Brexit doesn’t and has never meant Brexit. What it shorthand for is a nation’s self identity and no amount of re-runs is going to address that in the short-term which is why no one really has an answer to our current issues, and the debate is endlessly continuing.

Even on football forums. Actually, especially on football forums.

Excellent post sir! But as an avid spectator from the side, please don't talk such sense or things might calm down on here.

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25 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Oddly enough the figures have been pretty consistent since the referendum, support for either side has remained pretty much the same on polling. There’s been a slight change due to voter churn apparently, people becoming eligible whilst others die. Nothing to suggest there would be a landslide for either side.

And this here would leave still the same problem. Whoever ‘wins’ you’ve got to try and get essentially roughly half the population who didn’t agree with the vote to coalesce around something which they fundamentally disagree with. This isn’t about Brexit, it’s about the state of our nation and at the moment you’ve got a massively divided country - not on a single issue - but on a strategy for future development.

One side has seen global neo-liberalism work out very nicely for them thank you very much and wants the ideology of single country state-ism shrunk, the other as seen piss all benefits to a ever decreasing global except communities broken up and central government spending lavished on those areas where global service economy is the focal point and does not want to survive on handouts from European funds. 

Unless there was a big swing way it’s going to still be an issue - maybe one without such a harsh economic outlook - but a major issue nonetheless.

What Brexit is doing is eating up a lot of government time naturally, which doesn’t help fix the issue above - in fact it exacerbates it both economically and within the public discourse.

Which is why again, referendums are not a course country’s generally go down, but whilst a second referendum might economically bring more stability, it’s going to put a plaster over the real current problems in our nation. We need to resolve the imbalance in nationwide investment (and sadly Mounts, it’s UK governments that have failed in this task over generations - nothing to do with the EU)  look at the idea of our nation state and what it’s place is in the modern world, stop relying on misplaced ideas of empire and yes address the issues of immigration, rationally. A place like Bolton should simply not be just behind cities such as Glasgow for housing refugees, what did people think would happen putting the strain on an already struggling town? 

What might happen over a campaign we’ve yet to see, of course. But Brexit doesn’t and has never meant Brexit. What it shorthand for is a nation’s self identity and no amount of re-runs is going to address that in the short-term which is why no one really has an answer to our current issues, and the debate is endlessly continuing.

Even on football forums. Actually, especially on football forums.

Absolutely agree. The key point though is that globalisation is going to continue regardless of being in the EU - we cannot put that cork back in that bottle. And those disadvantaged communities were not trampled on by the EU but by our own governments. The EU are a convenient scapegoat. 

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I’d rather we never have a referendum again, especially on a subject so complex, a simple ‘Yes / No’ vote is useless when there are so many different things to consider 

We need to honour the last referendum and ‘leave’ the EU whilst remaining as close as possible to protect the Economy in the short / medium term. Consumer confidence is shot to pieces at the moment, look at all the retailers that are struggling if you want proof. Even ASOS shares lost 40% of their value yesterday following a horrendous November and that news took a load of other retailers with them 

We need to move on ASAP otherwise we lose more time where absolutely nothing is being done in government other than BREXIT and confidence in the economy slowly flushed down the toilet 

May’s deal might not be great but it offers stability in the short / medium term. Remainers (like myself) need to get behind a party that stands for membership of the EU (Lib Dems if needs be) and focus on getting back in the traditional way (having a majority of MP’s in the house who want to be rejoin the EU, winning an election with it as a key manifesto pledge) 

Democracy in action 

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2 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

I’d rather we never have a referendum again, especially on a subject so complex, a simple ‘Yes / No’ vote is useless when there are so many different things to consider 

We need to honour the last referendum and ‘leave’ the EU whilst remaining as close as possible to protect the Economy in the short / medium term. Consumer confidence is shot to pieces at the moment, look at all the retailers that are struggling if you want proof. Even ASOS shares lost 40% of their value yesterday following a horrendous November and that news took a load of other retailers with them 

We need to move on ASAP otherwise we lose more time where absolutely nothing is being done in government other than BREXIT and confidence in the economy slowly flushed down the toilet 

May’s deal might not be great but it offers stability in the short / medium term. Remainers (like myself) need to get behind a party that stands for membership of the EU (Lib Dems if needs be) and focus on getting back in the traditional way (having a majority of MP’s in the house who want to be rejoin the EU, winning an election with it as a key manifesto pledge) 

Democracy in action 

Sorry, but that is nonsense. We need to make the right decision - not just any decision because our leadership is so shoddy.

This is a real chance for our sovereign parliament to take control and find some consensus. And then that would be something we can get behind. Currently you have May and two unelected civil servants who have cooked up a deal nobody likes and are now trying to do their best to deny parliament a proper and meaningful say - having frustrated them all along. 

There are already a majority of MPs in the house who want to stay in the EU. 

 

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9 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Absolutely agree. The key point though is that globalisation is going to continue regardless of being in the EU - we cannot put that cork back in that bottle. And those disadvantaged communities were not trampled on by the EU but by our own governments. The EU are a convenient scapegoat. 

Yes the EU is a scapegoat, but globalisation is not a means to an end, it’s not beyond question and it’s not isolationist to see it has left millions helpless.

Just as you should accept a deal because of bad leadership, by the same token neo-liberal globalisation should not just be agreed with because it’s ‘been let out of the bottle.’

A second referendum wouldn’t solve the real problems, just as Trump leaving office when he does won’t.

The rise of populism is not to be ‘fought’ but listened to, it’s only then that self interested right wing hatred is defeated, not by screaming louder.

 

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8 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Yes the EU is a scapegoat, but globalisation is not a means to an end, it’s not beyond question and it’s not isolationist to see it has left millions helpless.

Just as you should accept a deal because of bad leadership, by the same token neo-liberal globalisation should not just be agreed with because it’s ‘been let out of the bottle.’

A second referendum wouldn’t solve the real problems, just as Trump leaving office when he does won’t.

The rise of populism is not to be ‘fought’ but listened to, it’s only then that self interested right wing hatred is defeated, not by screaming louder.

 

What are you proposing? I think the idea that globalisation is something that can be "rowed back" on is somewhat doomed to failure. I agree that it isn't necessarily a "good thing" but it isn't something any one country can just say "we're opting out of" and remain competitive. Certainly not one in the UK's position. There are ways to operate within it that can be successful and mitigate the damage somewhat.

The problem I have is that since 1979 we've elected governments that prioritise the economy and economic growth, and specifically the service and financial sectors in London, over everything. And we've very deliberately made it clear that as an electorate that is what we'll continue to do. However, such a set of decisions are incompatible with, on the other hand, wanting an end to neo-liberalism and globalisation. The people who want that should all be rushing to support Corbyn because he's the only one who might come close to delivering that. Political realities and expectations are so wide apart currently. The rise of right wing populism is the retort to decades of right wing neoliberalism....it's pretty stupid. 

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