Politics

[Mounts Kipper]

30 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Absolutely agree. The key point though is that globalisation is going to continue regardless of being in the EU - we cannot put that cork back in that bottle. And those disadvantaged communities were not trampled on by the EU but by our own governments. The EU are a convenient scapegoat. 

I don’t think you get it why 17.4 million voted to leave. I’ll itemize it just so you have a better understanding.

creeping federalizations including an EU army. 

over bearing rules and regulations (that the UK abide by to the letter of the law while other countries don’t)

Ridiculous amount of financial contributions resulting in a fat cat gravy train.

The opening of the door to millions of people from across the globe resulting in riots, murders , rapes and a  rapid change in our society, resulting in immigrant ghetto enclaves right across Europe.

The EU allowing countries into the EU who fail the proper tests resulting in the few  nett contributors having to shell out more. 

I could go on and on but In short it has nothing to do with the EU being made a scapegoat for our problems and everything to do with not liking the direction of travel of the EU. 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Mounts Kipper

[Tonge moor green jacket]

11 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I don’t think you get it why 17.4 million voted to leave. I’ll itemize it just so you have a better understanding.

creeping federalizations including an EU army. 

over bearing rules and regulations (that the UK abide by to the letter of the law while other countries don’t)

Ridiculous amount of financial contributions resulting in a fat cat gravy train.

The opening of the door to millions of people from across the globe resulting in riots, murders , rapes and a  rapid change in our society, resulting in immigrant ghetto enclaves right across Europe.

The EU allowing countries into the EU who fail the proper tests resulting in the few  nett contributors having to shell out more. 

I could go on and on but In short it has nothing to do with the EU being made a scapegoat for our problems and everything to do with not liking the direction of travel of the EU. 

 

None of that matters apparently.

Hungary pushing back significantly, perhaps too much, and is getting heated.

The EU seems oblivious or too self righteous to acknowledge major issues.

More civil unrest seems inevitable, sadly.

[Sweep]

25 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

including an EU army. 

 

 

Why is this an issue? - I'd be more scared of an army that we're not part of, than one we are part of

[Spider]

"man with nothing but the clothes on his back seeks better life in wealthy country"

Mounts, you cannot stop people wanting to move from a desperate shithole to a country where they see opportunity.

We are very fortunate to be born in a developed nation.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd do everything you could to improve your family's situation.

It's a shitty truth that we are envied and hated.

It can't and won't be stopped.

[Sweep]

27 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

 

over bearing rules and regulations (that the UK abide by to the letter of the law while other countries don’t)

 

 

and rightly or wrongoly, haven't we always been part of making those rules and regulations, and agreed to them all. We also had a veto if we didn't like them.

 

Out of interest, which particular rules and regulations are you looking for ward to us freeing ourselves from? - it's a serious question, as I can't off the top of my head think of a single rule and regulation that I have to abide to that really hinders my life or makes it a lot worse

[kent_white]

In the future - I reckon it'll be like Star Trek and that. 

We'll have a world government and all go to space school.

Plus bald, human men will be in control of all the best ships.

So for that reason I would vote remain in any future referendum.

[Sweep]

2 minutes ago, Spider said:

"man with nothing but the clothes on his back seeks better life in wealthy country"

Mounts, you cannot stop people wanting to move from a desperate shithole to a country where they see opportunity.

We are very fortunate to be born in a developed nation.

If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd do everything you could to improve your family's situation.

It's a shitty truth that we are envied and hated.

It can't and won't be stopped.

Haven't we just signed up to this UN Migration pact thing that everybody is so unhappy about......that's fuck all to do with the EU. Even when we're "out" they'll still be flcoking here in their droves

 

I do agree that Germany just opening the door was bonkers, and shouldn't have happened

[Sweep]

2 minutes ago, kent_white said:

 

Plus bald, human men will be in control of all the best ships.

 

Jules likes this

[birch-chorley]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Sorry, but that is nonsense. We need to make the right decision - not just any decision because our leadership is so shoddy.

This is a real chance for our sovereign parliament to take control and find some consensus. And then that would be something we can get behind. Currently you have May and two unelected civil servants who have cooked up a deal nobody likes and are now trying to do their best to deny parliament a proper and meaningful say - having frustrated them all along. 

There are already a majority of MPs in the house who want to stay in the EU. 

 

There are already a majority of MP’s who want to stay in the EU but how many of them had that as a key manifesto pledge in the last GE? If that’s the route that we are going down then those MP’s should have had the bottle to stand up and shout it at the last election to their constituents 

I’d like to share your optimism about getting a consensus out of Parliament but I can’t foresee any deal getting a working majority 

Have the pro remain MP’s even offered a workable solution or are they just talking about talking to each other. More importantly can they come up with something that honours the democratic referendum and gets approved by the EU? It’s back to ‘A la carte’ again as far as I can see 

Meanwhile we are three months away from falling off a cliff edge that’s no good for anyone 

[Sweep]

9 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

 

Meanwhile we are three months away from falling off a cliff edge that’s no good for anyone 

Will the sky fall in though?

[bwfcfan5]

4 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

There are already a majority of MP’s who want to stay in the EU but how many of them had that as a key manifesto pledge in the last GE? If that’s the route that we are going down then those MP’s should have had the bottle to stand up and shout it at the last election to their constituents 

I’d like to share your optimism about getting a consensus out of Parliament but I can’t foresee any deal getting a working majority 

Have the pro remain MP’s even offered a workable solution or are they just talking about talking to each other. More importantly can they come up with something that honours the democratic referendum and gets approved by the EU? It’s back to ‘A la carte’ again as far as I can see 

Meanwhile we are three months away from falling off a cliff edge that’s no good for anyone 

The deal May proposes is nothing like they had in their manifesto. Manifesto pledges are not indicative of a mandate in all cases.

As for a deal that honours the referendum, protects the economy and is workable with the EU - that is impossible. What parliament has to decide is what its priorities are. There is a deal currently that does not honour the referendum, does not protect the economy and is workable with the EU - but not with our parliament. 

There are other options for a deal - you could have a Norway style deal to exit and then progress to discussing a free trade deal - once we see what the free trade deal looks like we can then decide whether to move from Norway into a more distant relationship. That sort of phased exit is infinitely more managed and allows the referendum to be honored in stages. It allows checkpoints for Parliament and means business can get on with things quickly. It is workable with the EU, complies with the good friday agreement and ultimately would almost certainly pass parliament. The free trade arrangement to follow could be cross party and potentially at that point you could ask the public again - do you want to stay in the EEA with a customs relationship or do you want to sever further ties and take this FTA on the table.

It is a simple, workable and clear solution. Prevents the cliff edge, potentially honours those Brexit voters MORE so than May's deal as at least we'd have control of the process back and crucially does not crash the economy. 

[Zico]

1 hour ago, birch-chorley said:

Consumer confidence is shot to pieces at the moment, look at all the retailers that are struggling if you want proof. Even ASOS shares lost 40% of their value yesterday following a horrendous November and that news took a load of other retailers with them 

Am not convinced whether or not TM can push a deal through is a key factor in teenagers and 20 something's buying a cheap dress online

[Cheese]

1 hour ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I don’t think you get it why 17.4 million voted to leave. I’ll itemize it just so you have a better understanding.

creeping federalizations including an EU army. 

over bearing rules and regulations (that the UK abide by to the letter of the law while other countries don’t)

Ridiculous amount of financial contributions resulting in a fat cat gravy train.

The opening of the door to millions of people from across the globe resulting in riots, murders , rapes and a  rapid change in our society, resulting in immigrant ghetto enclaves right across Europe.

The EU allowing countries into the EU who fail the proper tests resulting in the few  nett contributors having to shell out more. 

I could go on and on but In short it has nothing to do with the EU being made a scapegoat for our problems and everything to do with not liking the direction of travel of the EU. 

 

No, they're the reasons YOU voted Leave.

The majority of people I know who voted Leave didn't give a fuck about the EU before 2016, and voted based on the promise of "£350M a week to the NHS" and "there'll be less immigrants". Both of which are lies.

[birch-chorley]

43 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

Am not convinced whether or not TM can push a deal through is a key factor in teenagers and 20 something's buying a cheap dress online

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/17/asos-issues-shock-profit-warning-as-november-downturn-takes-hold-fashion-retailer

Asos has issued an unexpected profit warning after a poor November, becoming the latest retailer to be hit by weak consumer confidence, increased discounting and unusually mild weather.

The downturn suggests the high street malaise is spreading to online retailers, with consumers worried about what Brexit will mean for their finances.

 

[bwfcfan5]

1 minute ago, birch-chorley said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/17/asos-issues-shock-profit-warning-as-november-downturn-takes-hold-fashion-retailer

Asos has issued an unexpected profit warning after a poor November, becoming the latest retailer to be hit by weak consumer confidence, increased discounting and unusually mild weather.

The downturn suggests the high street malaise is spreading to online retailers, with consumers worried about what Brexit will mean for their finances.

 

There are a load of factors - Brexit is one. But the idea that getting May's deal through changes consumer behaviour is laughable. 

If you want the strongest economy, then you stay in the EEA. People need to stop fudging this and stop pretending May's deal will actually help the economy. It isn't even damage limitation. 

[Zico]

1 minute ago, birch-chorley said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/17/asos-issues-shock-profit-warning-as-november-downturn-takes-hold-fashion-retailer

Asos has issued an unexpected profit warning after a poor November, becoming the latest retailer to be hit by weak consumer confidence, increased discounting and unusually mild weather.

The downturn suggests the high street malaise is spreading to online retailers, with consumers worried about what Brexit will mean for their finances.

 

I'd put discounting and mild weather ahead way ahead of consumer confidence/brexit for ASOS

worked with a few fast fashion ecommerce retailers and this has been coming for ages - a few are already on the brink due to not being able to shift stock - and that's due to a saturated market that is in a perpetual state of discounting their stock, people expect black friday prices all year round, and if they aren't the cheapest (as they all sell similar stuff), then they are going to be affected

[bwfcfan5]

6 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

I'd put discounting and mild weather ahead way ahead of consumer confidence/brexit for ASOS

worked with a few fast fashion ecommerce retailers and this has been coming for ages - a few are already on the brink due to not being able to shift stock - and that's due to a saturated market that is in a perpetual state of discounting their stock, people expect black friday prices all year round, and if they aren't the cheapest (as they all sell similar stuff), then they are going to be affected

Retail is struggling massively in general. What I will say is, behind the headline figures, our economy has been sick for a long time. People are in work, but in jobs where wages have not matched inflation for a long time. In zero hours contracts, in uncertain positions. The effects of austerity and this wage freeze are starting to manifest themselves. The chickens are coming home to roost. All in a perfect swirl to match the Brexit chaos this ridiculous government has brought. We're in for a rocky ride and it isn't just because of Brexit but that will make it worse.

You can't run an economy in the way the Tories have, especially when your key investments run aground. Next few years won't be pretty. We won't have a huge recession but it really would not surprise me to see very slow growth and the odd period of contraction. The finance sector will keep the economy afloat but only a few people will actually feel this. For the rest it will be a pseudo recession. Like 2010-2015.

Edited December 18, 2018 by bwfcfan5

[bwfcfan5]

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-data-poll-53-of-british-public-want-second-eu-referendum-11584278

Support for a referendum from this poll.

Only 16% of people polled would vote for May's deal in a 2nd referendum. Worse figures than the Lord Ashcroft poll. Where is this imaginary public support for May's deal? She keeps telling us it is what people want. But polls consistently say otherwise. And not by narrow margins either. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by bwfcfan5

[Sweep]

9 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Where is this imaginary public support for May's deal?

 

The public voted for Brexit, and this is a form of Brexit (the poll didn't ask what sort of Brexit we wanted) so if she delivers this deal, it could be construed as giving the public what they wanted - no need to ask anybody again siurely, as the decision was made over two years ago. Those who voted to leave didn't really care what deal we got or didn't get, they just wanted blue passports and the stopping of freedom of movement.......but now they're being offered it, they somehow have decided they want extra stuff as well

 

[bwfcfan5]

9 minutes ago, Sweep said:

The public voted for Brexit, and this is a form of Brexit (the poll didn't ask what sort of Brexit we wanted) so if she delivers this deal, it could be construed as giving the public what they wanted - no need to ask anybody again siurely, as the decision was made over two years ago. Those who voted to leave didn't really care what deal we got or didn't get, they just wanted blue passports and the stopping of freedom of movement.......but now they're being offered it, they somehow have decided they want extra stuff as well

 

Those who voted out, didn't vote for a deal. 

So I think it is disingenuous to say there is support for a deal that keeps us in a transition period potentially indefinitely or worse still in a customs union indefinitely. 

May cannot claim that is what the public wants - given all polls seem to suggest most Brexit voters wanted no deal. Therefore she should (using her logic) deliver that. The fact remains though in representative democracy the role of our representatives is to do what they JUDGE best for us - not necessarily to carry out the will of the people. 

[Sweep]

5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The fact remains though in representative democracy the role of our representatives is to do what they JUDGE best for us - not necessarily to carry out the will of the people. 

Many people still don't realise this.........ironically,  many of those are the ones who said that they wanted us to have soveriegn parliament 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

8 minutes ago, Sweep said:

Many people still don't realise this.........ironically,  many of those are the ones who said that they wanted us to have soveriegn parliament 

They judged it was right to put it to a referendum.

Voted for it in the HoC.

 

[Sweep]

1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

They judged it was right to put it to a referendum.

Voted for it in the HoC.

 

I know....

And presumably they could now, if they wanted to, just turn around and say "Bollocks, this is a really bad idea, let's just stay put" - I'm not saying they will, or they should, but my understanding is that they have the power just to ignore the referendum result if they felt it was going to "harm" the people and decide what they think is best for the country

[bwfcfan5]

24 minutes ago, Sweep said:

I know....

And presumably they could now, if they wanted to, just turn around and say "Bollocks, this is a really bad idea, let's just stay put" - I'm not saying they will, or they should, but my understanding is that they have the power just to ignore the referendum result if they felt it was going to "harm" the people and decide what they think is best for the country

It was an advisory referendum. Which means non-legally binding. So yes. They can and should as MPs do what they judge is best for their constituents. As Amber Rudd was quoted saying in the cabinet meeting today "Just because we've put our seat belts on doesn't mean we should crash the car". 

[Not in Crawley]

It’s advisory, we don’t have to act on it.

Mounts, that’s really not why folk voted out. In the same way they didn’t vote Trump for a wall.