Politics

[frank_spencer]

2 hours ago, Spider said:

So it’s not a big market to you, which means it doesn’t really matter.

Tough shit again?

Kicking out the poles and fellow Eastern Europeans will be about 20% of my regular customer base, still got the Rayguns and Africans they're always popping out babies.

[Ani]

2 hours ago, Spider said:

So it’s not a big market to you, which means it doesn’t really matter.

Tough shit again?

I think the discussion between yourself and Mounts on this shows how divisive this subject has become.

Knowing Mounts away from the site, he is not someone who does not give a shit about others and his use of 'tough shit' was more of a general 'shit happens' whichever solution we adopt.

Clearly from your personal position this fucks you off because for you this not a theoretical discussion it is about the immediate impact today.  

I am looking to retire asap and have a my pension money invested so all the uncertainty now is having a real impact on the value of those investments now, I can convince myself that in the longer term they will be alright but when it drops 10% in a month it shits you up. 

The reality is that 'No Deal' is not an option as too many MPs would oppose that. Based on Corbyns comments you can expect all Labour to oppose that, most non conservatives and a fair few Tory MPs. So a deal will be done it is now a case of agreeing what that deal looks like. The problem is that the longer the talking goes on the more damage it will do. If you are running a 5 year project do you sign up with a supplier in a country that potentially going to have to alter the terms of the trade or one that can commit for the full term ? Put simply why choose a UK firm in current market?

Corbyn makes him self more unelectable every day which is good, did he demand promises from the IRA before holding talks with them in the 70s?

 

One final observation is that every day when i look on facebook i have a number of people complaining that the BBC never give Labour any credit and a similar number saying there is a left wing bias on there. I think bias has a new meaning 'Not saying what i want to hear.'  

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Fair points Ani.

Fwiw, I reckon an agreement will materialise within parliament. Won't be easy, but something will take shape. The EU will then have their turn and will agree.

I can see why 'no deal' would be kept on the menu until the EU are inside.

[Farrelli]

Let the people decide. No deal or remain. A general election does not help and Labour will not enter into cross party talks. Therefore a people's vote seems the only alternative. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

They already decided.

[Farrelli]

1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

They already decided.

No idea what it meant at that time because of all the lies during the campaign. Now it is much more informed and it will end a stalemate between all parties.

[Ani]

15 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

They already decided.

Do you think the first vote was 'No Deal V Remain' or 'No Deal and Hard Deal and Soft Deal V Remain'

I do not think we can have another vote but I have said numerous time the vote was a Yes/No vote to a multi choice question.

 

[Casino]

18 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

They already decided.

if the will of the country is to leave, it will be confirmed

if its not, the majority will get what they want

[bwfcfan5]

I get the issue of "asking people again". It is fraught with problems.

But May keeps saying her deal "commands the will of the majority of the people". The more she says it the more people will say "ok test that out then". Especially if she cannot get it through parliament. 

The problem as I see it is, what options do you give. Do you let people vote for "no deal". How is it structured. It is very complex and its easy to come up with some set of options, but harder to in practice make the result definitive and meaningful.

As the Tory bloke said on QT last night - what if the turnout is lower than last time but the % reversed and remain wins 52:48 but with fewer voting overall? The row continues. Probably the only thing I agreed with from Diane Abbott last night was that a second vote - there is a bigger chance of people wanting no deal than wanting to remain. 

The ironic thing is I think those who want no deal and those who want to remain are slowly uniting behind a 2nd vote as both see it as the way to get what they want. 

[Sweep]

2 hours ago, Ani said:

 

Knowing Mounts away from the site, he is not someone who does not give a shit about others and his use of 'tough shit' was more of a general 'shit happens' whichever solution we adopt.

 

 

In all fairness, I don't think it was Mounts who said "tough shit" I think that was Bolty wasn't it?

[Ani]

10 minutes ago, Sweep said:

 

In all fairness, I don't think it was Mounts who said "tough shit" I think that was Bolty wasn't it?

Was it ? I apologise then. 

 

Was actually trying to stick up for Mounts. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Ani

[Traf]

The whole premise to a 2nd/3rd/4th vote ad nauseum is that we really weren't presented with the proper options on voting day.

I very much doubt that Remain would have lost to the clusterfuck of a shitstorm we're being presented with.

 

A vote for which was the better team from the Liverpool team of the 70's or the United team of the 90's could be a close vote. However, if it turns out that the Liverpool team of the 70's was actually their Under-7's girls team, it might alter the course.

Yes, I voted remain,
Yes, we lost
Yes, I'm having to man up / suck it up / accept that its' tough shit. 

[Moon boy]

The people who want another Referendum need to ask themselves if we waste 7/12 months, depending who you want to believe, of Leave propaganda/ Remain propaganda all over the tv, papers, media etc, bitter arguments in families, workplaces, fans forums and in the end the result is still close. This will not solve the problem

The Government need to heal the differences

[bwfcfan5]

This will be an unpopular opinion on here but I actually thought the treatment of Abbott last night verged on bullying. We all know she's a complete liability. Her party shouldn't put her up and the fact they do mean this is somewhat self inflicted. But the fact she was criticised by the audience member in that way yet not given immediate right of reply was not good. And there are claims on twitter by audience members that BBC staff were encouraging the audience to "go for her" and whipping them up pre-show.

I think questioning her claims and statements is one thing. But I actually felt uncomfortable watching last night. She was forced to sit there take it and not given a chance to say anything back. Even Daily Mail hack Oakeshott appeared embarrassed for her at one point.

This is where we've sunk to now. Thinking that is appropriate. The BBC thinking that is appropriate. And I fundamentally agree that she is a complete liability. However, she is far from the only one in politics.

I realise that literally nobody will agree with this but there we are. 

[bwfcfan5]

Just now, Moon boy said:

The people who want another Referendum need to ask themselves if we waste 7/12 months, depending who you want to believe, of Leave propaganda/ Remain propaganda all over the tv, papers, media etc, bitter arguments in families, workplaces, fans forums and in the end the result is still close. This will not solve the problem

The Government need to heal the differences

Indeed. But I think the argument is that government have had 2 and a half years and are simply making the division worse. A 2nd referendum is a risk but it lets people potentially choose what they want. As it stands the most likely outcome of government doing it is nobody getting what they want on any side. 

[Mounts Kipper]

5 hours ago, Ani said:

I think the discussion between yourself and Mounts on this shows how divisive this subject has become.

Knowing Mounts away from the site, he is not someone who does not give a shit about others and his use of 'tough shit' was more of a general 'shit happens' whichever solution we adopt.

Clearly from your personal position this fucks you off because for you this not a theoretical discussion it is about the immediate impact today.  

I am looking to retire asap and have a my pension money invested so all the uncertainty now is having a real impact on the value of those investments now, I can convince myself that in the longer term they will be alright but when it drops 10% in a month it shits you up. 

The reality is that 'No Deal' is not an option as too many MPs would oppose that. Based on Corbyns comments you can expect all Labour to oppose that, most non conservatives and a fair few Tory MPs. So a deal will be done it is now a case of agreeing what that deal looks like. The problem is that the longer the talking goes on the more damage it will do. If you are running a 5 year project do you sign up with a supplier in a country that potentially going to have to alter the terms of the trade or one that can commit for the full term ? Put simply why choose a UK firm in current market?

Corbyn makes him self more unelectable every day which is good, did he demand promises from the IRA before holding talks with them in the 70s?

 

One final observation is that every day when i look on facebook i have a number of people complaining that the BBC never give Labour any credit and a similar number saying there is a left wing bias on there. I think bias has a new meaning 'Not saying what i want to hear.'  

Thanks Ani I appreciate the comments, and yes my comment was more of a general shit happens, in fact I am sure I did not say tough shit, and yes I do care about other folks situation but as someone like yourself that has been through the 70s/80s and 90s of political and social unrest, being made redundant after 4 years apprenticeship and from a council house back ground and without a silver spoon I suppose that is where my view point and seemingly lack of sympathy might come from, as a kid we were always told to get on with it by parents and grandparents and it was tough love looking back but they came from completely different time.

I hope all works out well for Spider but we have as a nation voted to leave and unfortunately things will change and for some it will be worse and others it will be better, we all just have to get on with our working life and meet whatever challenges comes our way, but wasn't that always the way of the world before Brexit came along.  Good luck to Spider hope no more hard feelings. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Moon boy]

5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Indeed. But I think the argument is that government have had 2 and a half years and are simply making the division worse. A 2nd referendum is a risk but it lets people potentially choose what they want. As it stands the most likely outcome of government doing it is nobody getting what they want on any side. 

“Let’s peope potentially choose what they want”  Leavers want to leave

Remainers want to stay, leave a little bit, give up free movement possibly stay in the Customs Union/Single Market?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, Casino said:

if the will of the country is to leave, it will be confirmed

if its not, the majority will get what they want

So long as you add up the values of all leave options.

As we all know full well, no one could have known the best route until negotiations began. Ideals are one thing but compromise is also important. That's what folk expect from government and parliament.

[Moon boy]

1 minute ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Thanks Ani I appreciate the comments, and yes my comment was more of a general shit happens, in fact I am sure I did not say tough shit, and yes I do care about other folks situation but as someone like yourself that has been through the 70s/80s and 90s of political and social unrest, being made redundant after 4 years apprenticeship and from a council house back ground and without a silver spoon I suppose that is where my view point and seemingly lack of sympathy might come from, as a kid we were always told to get on with it by parents and grandparents and it was tough love looking back but they came from completely different time. I hope all works out well for Spider but we have as a nation voted to leave and unfortunately things will change and for some it will be worse and others it will be better, we all just have to get on with our working life and meet whatever challenges comes our way, but wasn't that always the way of the world before Brexit came along.  Good luck to Spider hope no more hard feelings. 

Me too, exactly 

[Casino]

25 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

This will be an unpopular opinion on here but I actually thought the treatment of Abbott last night verged on bullying. We all know she's a complete liability. Her party shouldn't put her up and the fact they do mean this is somewhat self inflicted. But the fact she was criticised by the audience member in that way yet not given immediate right of reply was not good. And there are claims on twitter by audience members that BBC staff were encouraging the audience to "go for her" and whipping them up pre-show.

I think questioning her claims and statements is one thing. But I actually felt uncomfortable watching last night. She was forced to sit there take it and not given a chance to say anything back. Even Daily Mail hack Oakeshott appeared embarrassed for her at one point.

This is where we've sunk to now. Thinking that is appropriate. The BBC thinking that is appropriate. And I fundamentally agree that she is a complete liability. However, she is far from the only one in politics.

I realise that literally nobody will agree with this but there we are. 

the editor of question time is a loyal white, former poster on here and definitely more left than right

[Casino]

28 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

The people who want another Referendum need to ask themselves if we waste 7/12 months, depending who you want to believe, of Leave propaganda/ Remain propaganda all over the tv, papers, media etc, bitter arguments in families, workplaces, fans forums and in the end the result is still close. This will not solve the problem

The Government need to heal the differences

7 months or 50 years

[Carlos]

27 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

This will be an unpopular opinion on here but I actually thought the treatment of Abbott last night verged on bullying. We all know she's a complete liability. Her party shouldn't put her up and the fact they do mean this is somewhat self inflicted. But the fact she was criticised by the audience member in that way yet not given immediate right of reply was not good. And there are claims on twitter by audience members that BBC staff were encouraging the audience to "go for her" and whipping them up pre-show.

It's called Question Time for a reason. Clearly the "audience" are all political activists, you have to take that in context. Clearly Corbyn's mob are smart on Twitter, miles ahead of the government, so they would say that!

[fatolive]

13 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Hardly friends if their deserting you. On the plus side the Irish market not that big anyhow, similar population to greater manchester and merseyside joint population. Why’s it so important to your business?  

just read that 34 billion in exports to Ireland, its one of the largest trading partners, not sure how that compares to other figures but its not a drop in the ocean if it all stopped, which i dont think it will but its not like a city economy you seem to suggest.

coincidentally, i'm involved in the gas main construction program Spider alludes to, lot of cooperation and joint ventures between British and Irish firms in that alone, lot of people here will have nothing to do if that went west, again, dont think it will but to dismiss it as akin to Manchester and Liverpool is wide of the mark.

 

[Casino]

19 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

“Let’s peope potentially choose what they want”  Leavers want to leave

Remainers want to stay, leave a little bit, give up free movement possibly stay in the Customs Union/Single Market?

i thought we had decided the only deal that gets through parliament has a customs union

thats not the leave you lot voted for

[Winchester White]

Surely staying in the customs union is not brexit at all. In fact it is worse than May's transition deal.  Also, who is to say that after the 2 1/2 years of transition (or possibly longer) that Labour aren't in power and a customs union is what they enter us into?