Politics

[paulhanley]

10 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

He’s received death threats. I think anyone grown up and adult who is worth listening to can understand differences of opinion without resorting to implicit and explicit threats of violence and even death to try and force someone out.

Boles is voting for the withdrawal agreement. So he’s voting for Brexit. To be forcing him out via threats and intimidation for voting with his government...that’s extremist. And there can be no argument otherwise.

He's received death threats from the Stamford and Grantham Conservative Association has he? Do please stop trying to confuse the issue by making out that everybody who disagrees with him therefore wants him taken out. People on the streets, roads, avenues and groves of this country have had enough. This is not about death threats. It's bottom-up, grassroots healthy democracy in action and we're going to be seeing lots, lots more of it. Get used to it.

[birch-chorley]

Aye 

When did TM’s Deal not deliver on the referendum? 

Baffling 

 

[bwfcfan5]

5 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

He's received death threats from the Stamford and Grantham Conservative Association has he? Do please stop trying to confuse the issue by making out that everybody who disagrees with him therefore wants him taken out. People on the streets, roads, avenues and groves of this country have had enough. This is not about death threats. It's bottom-up, grassroots healthy democracy in action and we're going to be seeing lots, lots more of it. Get used to it.

No it’s not. It’s people who can’t accept anyone who doesn’t completely agree with them. Just like momentum on the other side. It’s worrying that two main parties have been hijacked by extremists. 

Boles is voting for Brexit. And being forced out. Let that sink in. 

[paulhanley]

6 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

No it’s not. It’s people who can’t accept anyone who doesn’t completely agree with them. Just like momentum on the other side. It’s worrying that two main parties have been hijacked by extremists. 

Boles is voting for Brexit. And being forced out. Let that sink in. 

I'm rather afraid that's exactly what it's about. If the locals in the Stamford and Grantham Conservative party have observed the doings of the MP elected to serve them and not liked what they've seen, they are entitled to get rid and select someone who better represents the views of the people in that constituency. Yet again you casually label the people of Lincolnshire as extremists. In much the same way that people who voted remain have spent 2 years casually labelling people who voted for Brexit as racists, extremists, thick and all the rest. 17.4 million of us are all up on the moral high ground you thought you'd claimed for yourselves. Feeling rather claustrophobic is it?

 

[bwfcfan5]

8 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

I'm rather afraid that's exactly what it's about. If the locals in the Stamford and Grantham Conservative party have observed the doings of the MP elected to serve them and not liked what they've seen, they are entitled to get rid and select someone who better represents the views of the people in that constituency. Yet again you casually label the people of Lincolnshire as extremists. In much the same way that people who voted remain have spent 2 years casually labelling people who voted for Brexit as racists, extremists, thick and all the rest. 17.4 million of us are all up on the moral high ground you thought you'd claimed for yourselves. Feeling rather claustrophobic is it?

 

You can’t have any MP who represents every single view. Further extremist groups are claiming they represent everyone. Without actually testing that in any meaningful way. The majority of people in this country whether they voted for remain or leave now just want us to leave with a deal and get it sorted. Boles represents that majority. If you can claim he doesn’t I can claim he does! See how that works. The Tory party being flooded by those on the extremes and trying to claim the moral high ground doesn’t change that.

 

[paulhanley]

11 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

You can’t have any MP who represents every single view. Further extremist groups are claiming they represent everyone. Without actually testing that in any meaningful way. The majority of people in this country whether they voted for remain or leave now just want us to leave with a deal and get it sorted. Boles represents that majority. If you can claim he doesn’t I can claim he does! See how that works. The Tory party being flooded by those on the extremes and trying to claim the moral high ground doesn’t change that.

 

Or in short, people who disagree with you are extremists. 

You can't have an MP who matches everyone's interests, no. But you can get much closer than Boles was clearly managing. 

We'd all better lie awake tonight worrying that the blue-rinse old dears and the milkmen and postmen of Stamford and Grantham have become swastika wearing thugs making death threats. There might be a knock on the door from the death squads of the Brexit barbarians later. Put the wardrobe up against the front door! 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Paul- a perfect example of what you're saying was illustrated by Will Self recently.

More intellectual elitism, trying to get everyone as a racist etc, because he clearly knows better than 17.4 million folk.

[paulhanley]

2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Paul- a perfect example of what you're saying was illustrated by Will Self recently.

More intellectual elitism, trying to get everyone as a racist etc, because he clearly knows better than 17.4 million folk.

There's a lot of it about. It's not contained to left or right, but it is anti-democratic. Will Self and co just can't see that point because they know better than us oafs. Brexit has brought all this right to the surface and regardless of how Brexit plays out these characters and their lazy comfort zone are under challenge like never before. Long may it continue.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Well put. The whole brexit issue was run across party lines, and as you say isn't a left and right issue.

 

[Cheese]

20 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Paul- a perfect example of what you're saying was illustrated by Will Self recently.

More intellectual elitism, trying to get everyone as a racist etc, because he clearly knows better than 17.4 million folk.

You're as thick as Mark Francois if that's how you interpreted what Will Self said. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Cheese

[bwfcfan5]

There is a difference in my view between people who listen to a balanced range of evidence and expert analysis and come to an informed view and those just saying ‘we know best’. I think the frustration of many is that it’s patently clear that the Brexit promised pre election or the multiple versions of Brexit promised do not come close to reflecting reality. When you take on board the view of those who have worked across EU non EU borders and international law experts it’s clear that in the reality that Brexit would have to be a compromise. 

I don’t think any Brexit is a good thing. But it is what will have to happen. I don’t agree with it but there we go. I can compromise and take on board that ultimately people want out. However, I find it hard to go along with groups who against any rational evidence just insist a Brexit that clearly doesn’t exist is possible. Or who maintain leaving with no deal isn’t a complete disaster in the short to medium term.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, paulhanley said:

Or in short, people who disagree with you are extremists. 

 

Sums it up

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

3 hours ago, Cheese said:

You're as thick as Mark Francois if that's how you interpreted what Will Self said. 

You're just thick. Period.

[paulhanley]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

There is a difference in my view between people who listen to a balanced range of evidence and expert analysis and come to an informed view and those just saying ‘we know best’. I think the frustration of many is that it’s patently clear that the Brexit promised pre election or the multiple versions of Brexit promised do not come close to reflecting reality. When you take on board the view of those who have worked across EU non EU borders and international law experts it’s clear that in the reality that Brexit would have to be a compromise. 

I don’t think any Brexit is a good thing. But it is what will have to happen. I don’t agree with it but there we go. I can compromise and take on board that ultimately people want out. However, I find it hard to go along with groups who against any rational evidence just insist a Brexit that clearly doesn’t exist is possible. Or who maintain leaving with no deal isn’t a complete disaster in the short to medium term.

"evidence" "expert analysis". All these "experts" who predict "complete disaster" every time somebody says or does something that goes against the linear grind of the European project. Except they've been wrong at every turn since the 90s. And they're still wrong. How are George Osborne's predictions about what would happen on a "no" vote alone coming along? 

Still you carry on with your superior technocratic knowledge eh. Like a remoaner action man doll. "crashing out".... "complete disaster", blah, blah, blah.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, boltondiver said:

Please explain how people who want to uphold the largest democratic vote ever in this country are extremists.

 

No explanation forthcoming 

[bwfcfan5]

2 hours ago, paulhanley said:

"evidence" "expert analysis". All these "experts" who predict "complete disaster" every time somebody says or does something that goes against the linear grind of the European project. Except they've been wrong at every turn since the 90s. And they're still wrong. How are George Osborne's predictions about what would happen on a "no" vote alone coming along? 

Still you carry on with your superior technocratic knowledge eh. Like a remoaner action man doll. "crashing out".... "complete disaster", blah, blah, blah.

I mean pretty much every single thing Nick Clegg said would happen pre vote if it was a leave vote has happened.

But the thing is that you aren’t dismissing politicians here. You dismiss virtually every academic, economist and loads of business owners who work across Europe and have for decades, especially in supply chains and logistics. You are saying everyone is wrong and I’m right. But for me whilst it’s absolutely fine to do that you have to provide some proper evidence that has been subject of some form of peer review. Because otherwise it is literally just your opinion, with no basis behind it.

But back to the original point, Boles is voting for the deal voted against a people’s vote and his only issue is he doesn’t believe in no deal. Do you want every MP who doesn’t believe in no deal deselected? Because that certainly sounds incredibly dictatorial and anti-democratic to me.

[bolty58]

3 hours ago, boltondiver said:

No explanation forthcoming 

Quite. It's the opposite side who are extreme (and anti-democratic).

[bwfcfan5]

19 hours ago, boltondiver said:

Please explain how people who want to uphold the largest democratic vote ever in this country are extremists.

 

I mean I’ve explained above. Voting for the deal is doing that. Deciding that leaving only means ‘no deal’ when it’s clear that the leave campaign referenced a deal before the referendum is an extreme position to take. 

Also deciding that MPs are only allowed to represent a single position that has never been voted on and secondly clearly almost half of the population don’t support - that’s extremist. That’s dictatorial. 

[paulhanley]

11 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I mean pretty much every single thing Nick Clegg said would happen pre vote if it was a leave vote has happened.

But the thing is that you aren’t dismissing politicians here. You dismiss virtually every academic, economist and loads of business owners who work across Europe and have for decades, especially in supply chains and logistics. You are saying everyone is wrong and I’m right. But for me whilst it’s absolutely fine to do that you have to provide some proper evidence that has been subject of some form of peer review. Because otherwise it is literally just your opinion, with no basis behind it.

But back to the original point, Boles is voting for the deal voted against a people’s vote and his only issue is he doesn’t believe in no deal. Do you want every MP who doesn’t believe in no deal deselected? Because that certainly sounds incredibly dictatorial and anti-democratic to me.

Another lecture from the superior fact checkers and truth tellers of Project Fear. Same old drivel. The problem is of course there's all kinds of empirical evidence about the EU and its malign influence on the prosperity of the people who live within the 28 nations and the health of democracy in the same nations. Would you like to debate in detail the failures of the Euro since it was imposed? Shall we talk about how the Eurozone is now effectively a zombie economy full of debt-entrapped Governments? Shall we discuss the very real and grinding impoverishment of southern Europe? How about the fact that the EU area has been the slowest growing area of the world this last 30 years? How about crony capitalism - with the EU and large multinationals holding each other in a tight embrace. Special interests, cozy behind closed doors deals. Drowning regulation that only multinationals can afford to pay - but willingly do so because they know it keeps new entrants out of their markets. Stagnant, stale, stitched up. Airbus being found by the WTO to have received $22bn of illegal subsidies by the EU. Of course they bellyache about supply chains and all the rest of it - they'd do anything to preserve the status quo from which they benefit but from which the middle and working class people's of Europe do not. Meanwhile the EU itself never gets its accounts signed off and Jean Claude Juncker swans back from lunch every day barely able to walk in a straight line.

Democratically the gap is too large between the people and this gravy train of unelected people taking key decisions and consistently getting them wrong. That's why it is refreshing to see bottom up democracy like that being exercised by the Conservative Association of Stamford and Grantham. A PPE student from Magdalen College, Oxford, formerly of Westminster City Council suddenly rocks up in Lincolnshire and knows better than the local people who voted 61/39 to leave the EU. Except of course it is him and his ilk who've had everything wrong about the EU since Margaret Thatcher left office. His cadre have misread the politics and the economics at every juncture. Bill Cash, Nicholas Budgen, Tony Benn, Graham Stringer, Kate Hoey - even Lord Owen are the ones whose warnings about the EU have come to pass.

So save the sanctimonious lectures my friend. We've got all the evidence we need. We've got the facts. We've also got your number. we've got Nick Boles's number and we've voted to leave this mess behind us. Your Project Fear has been utterly seen through.

[Moon boy]

26 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I mean I’ve explained above. Voting for the deal is doing that. Deciding that leaving only means ‘no deal’ when it’s clear that the leave campaign referenced a deal before the referendum is an extreme position to take. 

Also deciding that MPs are only allowed to represent a single position that has never been voted on and secondly clearly almost half of the population don’t support - that’s extremist. That’s dictatorial. 

‘A position that has never been voted on’. ‘Almost half the population don’t support’ 

The only FACT in your argument is that we did have a Referendum and it has been voted on and almost half of the population, 48%, don’t support it but unfortunately for MP’s and people like you MORE  than half, 52%, voted to leave the EU, so in a Democracy we need to leave.

The WA is NOT leaving the EU, that’s why it has been rejected twice, and that’s why Boles wishes to vote for it, it the softest of soft Brexit’s

Until Remainers accept the vote nothing will be resolved

[Moon boy]

8 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

Another lecture from the superior fact checkers and truth tellers of Project Fear. Same old drivel. The problem is of course there's all kinds of empirical evidence about the EU and its malign influence on the prosperity of the people who live within the 28 nations and the health of democracy in the same nations. Would you like to debate in detail the failures of the Euro since it was imposed? Shall we talk about how the Eurozone is now effectively a zombie economy full of debt-entrapped Governments? Shall we discuss the very real and grinding impoverishment of southern Europe? How about the fact that the EU area has been the slowest growing area of the world this last 30 years? How about crony capitalism - with the EU and large multinationals holding each other in a tight embrace. Special interests, cozy behind closed doors deals. Drowning regulation that only multinationals can afford to pay - but willingly do so because they know it keeps new entrants out of their markets. Stagnant, stale, stitched up. Airbus being found by the WTO to have received $22bn of illegal subsidies by the EU. Of course they bellyache about supply chains and all the rest of it - they'd do anything to preserve the status quo from which they benefit but from which the middle and working class people's of Europe do not. Meanwhile the EU itself never gets its accounts signed off and Jean Claude Juncker swans back from lunch every day barely able to walk in a straight line.

Democratically the gap is too large between the people and this gravy train of unelected people taking key decisions and consistently getting them wrong. That's why it is refreshing to see bottom up democracy like that being exercised by the Conservative Association of Stamford and Grantham. A PPE student from Magdalen College, Oxford, formerly of Westminster City Council suddenly rocks up in Lincolnshire and knows better than the local people who voted 61/39 to leave the EU. Except of course it is him and his ilk who've had everything wrong about the EU since Margaret Thatcher left office. His cadre have misread the politics and the economics at every juncture. Bill Cash, Nicholas Budgen, Tony Benn, Graham Stringer, Kate Hoey - even Lord Owen are the ones whose warnings about the EU have come to pass.

So save the sanctimonious lectures my friend. We've got all the evidence we need. We've got the facts. We've also got your number. we've got Nick Boles's number and we've voted to leave this mess behind us. Your Project Fear has been utterly seen through.

Well said Paul, wish I could express my my feelings as eloquently, you probably could add the Kinnock family, Seylmar and many more to that list, bob on

[birch-chorley]

31 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

The WA is NOT leaving the EU, that’s why it has been rejected twice, and that’s why Boles wishes to vote for it, it the softest of soft Brexit’s

Until Remainers accept the vote nothing will be resolved

Of course the WA means leaving the EU 

Its delivering on the simple Yes / No vote 

Trying to make out that it does t deliver on the vote is complete bollocks and you know it 

IT might not be exactly the leave you wanted but it is leave 

1) No more freedom of movement 

2) Blue passports 

Ticks the boxes that a huge number of the 17m voted for 

[Moon boy]

10 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Of course the WA means leaving the EU 

Its delivering on the simple Yes / No vote 

Trying to make out that it does t deliver on the vote is complete bollocks and you know it 

IT might not be exactly the leave you wanted but it is leave 

1) No more freedom of movement 

2) Blue passports 

Ticks the boxes that a huge number of the 17m voted for 

Did you vote for it?

[darwen_white]

12 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I mean pretty much every single thing Nick Clegg said would happen pre vote if it was a leave vote has happened.

Nick Clegg: "People who don't accept the result will be like those Japanese soldiers who continued to fight the last war because no one had told them it had ended"

[birch-chorley]

3 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Did you vote for it?

Did I vote for what? 

I voted to stay in, the status quo, given the country is in infinitely better shape then when we joined

However, I’ve said for months now that TM’s WA is probably about as good as we can get. We could fuck about for another ten years and it wouldn’t be far off what’s on the table 

Clearly No Deal would be a complete shambles 

take a straw poll of this board, go back to the original BREXIT thread and look at how many people championed leaving with no deal. You’ll find the vast majority of BREXIT supporters said we would have tariff free access if we voted to leave 

17m certainly didn’t vote to leave with no deal that’s for sure