Politics

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Wasn't it reported that only four days parliamentary time will be lost owing to this queen's speech business.

It's conference time, and further discussion will take place later.

Not sure what they can talk about re brexit. Unless a new deal magically appears.

Onto the yellowhammer document. Listening to the port man in his phone call, some questioning of how that document was out together is essential. 

As was the report that was produced that said TM deal would be marginally worse than remain.

How very convenient. Government in action; no wonder Cambridge analytica were approached.

[bolty58]

28 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

When the elected representatives cannot deliver on what the people voted for then it is no longer a government and democracy is failed, that the opposition would not take the offer of a GE means democracy currently is on hold. 

Precisely what is wrong with the Remain side, particularly the 400 and odd in Parliament. Steadfastly refusing to enact the will of the people expressed in the biggest democratic vote in our history. Then they want to turn around and use the term 'democracy' to cover their shit stained tracks.

It's quite simple. If the result of the 2016 referendum is not delivered then democracy is finished and I'll be fucking glad I accepted the offer when I was approached.

Edited September 12, 2019 by bolty58

[mickbrown]

Just leaving this here. Make of it what you will. 

 

[Farrelli]

30 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

No, no, no

you don’t understand

The definition of democracy is framed the person claiming that the other side is denying democracy 

Well it certainly isn't defined by one man closing down parliament for five weeks at such a critical point.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Farrelli said:

Well it certainly isn't defined by one man closing down parliament for five weeks at such a critical point.

Thanks for reaffirming my point

[Sweep]

21 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

Just leaving this here. Make of it what you will. 

 

yes, but so what, do some deep research on George Soros (or something like that anyway)

[Sweep]

40 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Wasn't it reported that only four days parliamentary time will be lost owing to this queen's speech business.

 

Indeed. In reality, then conference season should have been cancelled altogether. If these MPs are so upset, then surely they would have already cancelled their conferences, or said they wouldn't be attending, in order to discuss further what is required to ensure the UK makes the right decision. They're all twats

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Sweep said:

Indeed. In reality, then conference season should have been cancelled altogether. If these MPs are so upset, then surely they would have already cancelled their conferences, or said they wouldn't be attending, in order to discuss further what is required to ensure the UK makes the right decision. They're all twats

Arseholes

[Ani]

Magnificent. The Leave government produce a paper on the risks of No Deal and Corbyn gets stick. 

Got to wonder what was in the stuff they did not let us see. 

[bwfcfan5]

48 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

Just leaving this here. Make of it what you will. 

 

If this level of corruption was happening in a third world country the usual suspects on here would shake their heads and smugly congratulate themselves on being British.

Every single day our standing in the world drops. Brexit is about a rich minority betting against the UK and making a huge profit. Whilst normal folk are shafted. And the usual sheep stand gurning and clapping it on, threatening violence and disturbance if their wishes aren't honoured.

A complete farce. And simply shows how easy it is for a rich minority of corrupt individuals to manipulate the population. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

24 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Arseholes

Aye.

As someone sort of in the industry; could you explain the mechanics of these hedge fund dudes doing their bit, as Mick has outlined.

 What exactly is it that they do in this shorting business, and with who's money.

What does it actually do to the average man in the street?

[bwfcfan5]

7 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Aye.

As someone sort of in the industry; could you explain the mechanics of these hedge fund dudes doing their bit, as Mick has outlined.

 What exactly is it that they do in this shorting business, and with who's money.

What does it actually do to the average man in the street?

Why would Brexiteers be betting billions on failure of the economy when they've all told us how Brexit will be great?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

11 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Why would Brexiteers be betting billions on failure of the economy when they've all told us how Brexit will be great?

I've asked a question to someone with knowledge of it all. Not someone who pretends to have.

[bwfcfan5]

4 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I've asked a question to someone with knowledge of it all. Not someone who pretends to have.

And I've asked you a simple question. You don't want to answer it though. I'll ask again. Why are Brexiteers betting on economic failure?

[Sweep]

26 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Why would Brexiteers be betting billions on failure of the economy when they've all told us how Brexit will be great?

It may well be that they're taking a view there will be some pain for a period of time, and they're willing to take a gamble. I think every single person in the world (well, apart from Mounts) expects there to be some level of disruption, even if it is only for a few days, if we leave on 31st October without a deal. You have to remember, their real job, is to ensure they and their customers make money, if that means the UK suffers for a while, so be it......as some would say "tough shit" if you don't happen to be one of those making the money

Plenty of money was made the night of the vote, when the exchange rate dived through the floor, even Farage was accused of shorting the pound when he told the world that remain had won: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/25/nigel-farage-denies-shorting-value-of-sterling-on-night-of-brexit-vote - to be fair, I and everybody else would have done it given the opportunity (I'm not saying he did, as I really don't know). Let's not pretend any of these lot, on either side, are bothered about the UK prospering, they'd all happily the UK sank into the North Sea if they could make enough money out of it

[Tonge moor green jacket]

7 minutes ago, Sweep said:

It may well be that they're taking a view there will be some pain for a period of time, and they're willing to take a gamble. I think every single person in the world (well, apart from Mounts) expects there to be some level of disruption, even if it is only for a few days, if we leave on 31st October without a deal. You have to remember, their real job, is to ensure they and their customers make money, if that means the UK suffers for a while, so be it......as some would say "tough shit" if you don't happen to be one of those making the money

Plenty of money was made the night of the vote, when the exchange rate dived through the floor, even Farage was accused of shorting the pound when he told the world that remain had won: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/25/nigel-farage-denies-shorting-value-of-sterling-on-night-of-brexit-vote - to be fair, I and everybody else would have done it given the opportunity (I'm not saying he did, as I really don't know). Let's not pretend any of these lot, on either side, are bothered about the UK prospering, they'd all happily the UK sank into the North Sea if they could make enough money out of it

To an extent I agree. If it goes too bad though, long term that wouldn't help them would it?

That's why I asked for a full explanation of what is going on.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Why would Brexiteers be betting billions on failure of the economy when they've all told us how Brexit will be great?

You will disagree with whatever  is explained to you, so it would be a waste of breath and time.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, boltondiver said:

You will disagree with whatever  is explained to you, so it would be a waste of breath and time.

Sod him, I'm interested!

[Ani]

34 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

To an extent I agree. If it goes too bad though, long term that wouldn't help them would it?

That's why I asked for a full explanation of what is going on.

Ok.....

Usually in investment you are hoping the value of the investment goes up. So you buy 10 for £1 each. They go up to £2. You have £20. 

In shorting what in essence you are doing is selling the ten on day so you get £10. But you are also agreeing to buy them back at an agreed time for the market price. So if they drop to £5 you buy them back for £50. So you are up. 

If the price goes up you lose. 

It is very similar to laying a horse on the exchange. 

Hedge funds can bet either way. 

Hedge funds are multi millions. The scary thing (whoever is in government) is that people use their power and influence to get the markets to move in their favour. So taking JRM as an example, his company has apparently being betting the economy will struggle whilst at the same time championing Leave as a great opportunity for the country. But every element of his investment policy shows he thinks the economy will suffer. From his side he would argue that if investment funds do well this makes money so the country benefits. This is partially true as pension funds etc might do well. But the fact is that the people who benefit most are the very rich and that money does not filter back into the lower paid. 

Add in these funds are experts at tax avoidance this is marginal benefit. As nothing comes back to NHS for instance  

Maybe thing that is being ignored is that there is EU legislation coming through that will close the tax loop holes so these funds with all their power and influence are desperate to stop this. This legislation was included in Mays deal. 

It is an old story that those with money and power will push their own agenda. But JRM is more blatant than many before him and people are buying his act. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Ani

[Moon boy]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

If this level of corruption was happening in a third world country the usual suspects on here would shake their heads and smugly congratulate themselves on being British.

Every single day our standing in the world drops. Brexit is about a rich minority betting against the UK and making a huge profit. Whilst normal folk are shafted. And the usual sheep stand gurning and clapping it on, threatening violence and disturbance if their wishes aren't honoured.

A complete farce. And simply shows how easy it is for a rich minority of corrupt individuals to manipulate the population. 

Are they being silly with their money, because Parliament has blocked our exit on October 31st, and the majority of MP’s in our elected Parliament look like they are in a position to revoke A50 at the moment, surely Boris can’t do what he wants, after all he’s only the PM

If you are worried about ‘a rich minority of corrupt individuals manipulating the population try Blair, Miller, Greive, Adonis, Heseltine etc, etc,etc

[bwfcfan5]

12 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Are they being silly with their money, because Parliament has blocked our exit on October 31st, and the majority of MP’s in our elected Parliament look like they are in a position to revoke A50 at the moment, surely Boris can’t do what he wants, after all he’s only the PM

If you are worried about ‘a rich minority of corrupt individuals manipulating the population try Blair, Miller, Greive, Adonis, Heseltine etc, etc,etc

The fact that you and other merrily parrot this nonsense is unbelieveable. Even when presented with news that Brexiteers have billions of pounds riding on a no deal Brexit and their predicted failure of the economy in that event. 

We're not talking someone on a gravy train here. We're talking a rich minority trying to engineer a situation behind the scenes to profit them hugely at the expense of everyone else. It wouldn't be so bad if they were betting against us but not trying to influence direction. Yet they are. 

[frank_spencer]

6 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

 

We're not talking someone on a gravy train here. We're talking a rich minority trying to engineer a situation behind the scenes to profit them hugely at the expense of everyone else. It wouldn't be so bad if they were betting against us but not trying to influence direction. Yet they are. 

Bit like a footballer betting against his team and repeatedly booting the ball towards his own nets

[Sweep]

1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

To an extent I agree. If it goes too bad though, long term that wouldn't help them would it?

 

No probably not, but if you could make a quick Billion or two now, then who cares about the future?!?  -  theoretically, you could make a quick buck, and then move on to other markets. Or to put it this way, if I could do something at work today, that mihgt net me say £1M, then I'd not at present be overly worried if my company existed or not next January, as I'd already be quids in, having "taken the money and run"

 

it's all very complex this shorting of money, and I don't pretend to understand it, I know that to profit, you generally have to be very ITK, and also have very deep pockets. And it does go wrong on occasion. As Miami pointed out earlier in this thread, the likes of George Soros have made plenty of money in this sort of activity

[Tonge moor green jacket]

33 minutes ago, Ani said:

Ok.....

Usually in investment you are hoping the value of the investment goes up. So you buy 10 for £1 each. They go up to £2. You have £20. 

In shorting what in essence you are doing is selling the ten on day so you get £10. But you are also agreeing to buy them back at an agreed time for the market price. So if they drop to £5 you buy them back for £50. So you are up. 

If the price goes up you lose. 

It is very similar to laying a horse on the exchange. 

Hedge funds can bet either way. 

Hedge funds are multi millions. The scary thing (whoever is in government) is that people use their power and influence to get the markets to move in their favour. So taking JRM as an example, his company has apparently being betting the economy will struggle whilst at the same time championing Leave as a great opportunity for the country. But every element of his investment policy shows he thinks the economy will suffer. From his side he would argue that if investment funds do well this makes money so the country benefits. This is partially true as pension funds etc might do well. But the fact is that the people who benefit most are the very rich and that money does not filter back into the lower paid. 

Add in these funds are experts at tax avoidance this is marginal benefit. As nothing comes back to NHS for instance  

Maybe thing that is being ignored is that there is EU legislation coming through that will close the tax loop holes so these funds with all their power and influence are desperate to stop this. This legislation was included in Mays deal. 

It is an old story that those with money and power will push their own agenda. But JRM is more blatant than many before him and people are buying his act. 

The second paragraph doesn't add up?

If you sell the ten and get £10, then buy back for £50, you've lost £40.

Unless you're saying they went up ten times from £1 purchase fee, to £10 selling fee, yielding £90.

Then buying back at £50, yielding £40 overall, and still having your units.

Unless I'm missing something then isn't this just typical buying/selling on markets and normal risks?

[Sweep]

7 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

 

Unless I'm missing something then isn't this just typical buying/selling on markets and normal risks?

It's very high risk indeed, and not something you or I could do, it's the sort of activity that in theory could bring an entire nation down (I'm not suggesting this will happen, before anybody gets hysterical)

 

Look at some of these numbers: https://www.investopedia.com/news/10-biggest-shorts-us-equity-market-short-selling/ the 10 of them combined, they make the above circa £8B not look all that dramatic at all.

 

This is generally the domain of the "super rich" forget those with a few million quid, it's way, way above that it's hedge-funds and Billionaires playing here