Politics

[miamiwhite]

Couldn't script it with the EU

https://www.dw.com/en/eu-nominee-reynders-facing-probe-claim-belgian-newspapers/a-50439797

[Salford Trotter]

1 hour ago, miamiwhite said:

Sorry fella, is German going into recession ?

A straight yes or no from you for once please.

 

And, as you’re nitpicking like the person you are, could you please show me where the “continent is laughing at us”

I’ll wait.

This is what you said..... "Please point me to the direction of Germany doing brilliantly as we speak and mocking us....same with Italy, France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Norway amongst others...." 

You inferred that the EU were going the same way as Germany (who may well be going into recession) and I just proved they are not. Economies are cyclical so there will be times when all economies go into recession so just to cherry pick one economy at one point in time doesn't make your point about an underperforming EU valid.  As for Norway, it is bucking the global trend and its economy is heading for its fastest expansion in 7 years so I don't get the point you are making. The French economy is performing on par if not slightly better than the UK. 

I didn't make the point about the UK being a laughing stock but it is clear the world is looking at the UK with incredulity. I was at a recording of The Late Show is NYC and Graham Norton was being interviewed and he tried to explain the mess we were in and after talking to several US guests in the queue whilst waiting to go into the theatre all they could say how sad they were for the mess we are in. For many in the US to view us that way and feel sorry for us and they have to cope with Trump puts into perspective for me. 

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

This is what you said..... "Please point me to the direction of Germany doing brilliantly as we speak and mocking us....same with Italy, France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Norway amongst others...." 

You inferred that the EU were going the same way as Germany (who may well be going into recession) and I just proved they are not. Economies are cyclical so there will be times when all economies go into recession so just to cherry pick one economy at one point in time doesn't make your point about an underperforming EU valid.  As for Norway, it is bucking the global trend and its economy is heading for its fastest expansion in 7 years so I don't get the point you are making. The French economy is performing on par if not slightly better than the UK. 

I didn't make the point about the UK being a laughing stock but it is clear the world is looking at the UK with incredulity. I was at a recording of The Late Show is NYC and Graham Norton was being interviewed and he tried to explain the mess we were in and after talking to several US guests in the queue whilst waiting to go into the theatre all they could say how sad they were for the mess we are in. For many in the US to view us that way and feel sorry for us and they have to cope with Trump puts into perspective for me. 

 

One eyed utter tripe

[Salford Trotter]

10 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

One eyed utter tripe

praise indeed from a one-eyed Brexiteer

Please tell me what I have said that is not correct?

[Casino]

You forget that BD still considers the plummeting pound a seasonal thing

Others call it a correction

I call it 'a bit shit'

[Moon boy]

22 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

This is what you said..... "Please point me to the direction of Germany doing brilliantly as we speak and mocking us....same with Italy, France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Norway amongst others...." 

You inferred that the EU were going the same way as Germany (who may well be going into recession) and I just proved they are not. Economies are cyclical so there will be times when all economies go into recession so just to cherry pick one economy at one point in time doesn't make your point about an underperforming EU valid.  As for Norway, it is bucking the global trend and its economy is heading for its fastest expansion in 7 years so I don't get the point you are making. The French economy is performing on par if not slightly better than the UK. 

I didn't make the point about the UK being a laughing stock but it is clear the world is looking at the UK with incredulity. I was at a recording of The Late Show is NYC and Graham Norton was being interviewed and he tried to explain the mess we were in and after talking to several US guests in the queue whilst waiting to go into the theatre all they could say how sad they were for the mess we are in. For many in the US to view us that way and feel sorry for us and they have to cope with Trump puts into perspective for me. 

 

ST in your last paragraph you make the point that Graham Norton (who?) tried to explain the mess we’re in, when you say ‘mess’ do you mean, because we’ve not left or because we’re trying to leave?

Then you say people in the US feel sorry for us, why?

[Salford Trotter]

1 minute ago, Moon boy said:

ST in your last paragraph you make the point that Graham Norton (who?) tried to explain the mess we’re in, when you say ‘mess’ do you mean, because we’ve not left or because we’re trying to leave?

Then you say people in the US feel sorry for us, why?

Look him up

Whichever way you look at it we are in one huge mess. The ones I spoke to recognise the point I made in the first sentence and it is all self-inflicted

[kent_white]

You can think what you like about Brexit. But if you don't agree it's a mess then you're deluding yourself.

[Moon boy]

2 minutes ago, kent_white said:

You can think what you like about Brexit. But if you don't agree it's a mess then you're deluding yourself.

Is it a mess because we’ve not left yet or a mess because we want to leave?

[Mounts Kipper]

19 minutes ago, Casino said:

You forget that BD still considers the plummeting pound a seasonal thing

Others call it a correction

I call it 'a bit shit'

The relatively slightly weaker pound helps U.K. exports, and when you say plummeting, I remember when I purchased my property in Spain 6 years ago and way before Brexit it was 1.18 it is now 1.12, hardly a massive change. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Moon boy]

12 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Look him up

Whichever way you look at it we are in one huge mess. The ones I spoke to recognise the point I made in the first sentence and it is all self-inflicted

‘Look him up’ who? Graham Norton?

He’s a gay Irish tv presenter, who I suspect supported Remain, he’s entitled to his opinion but that’s all it is, he’s no more relevant than you or i

If it’s a huge mess Boris is trying to sort it out, once and for all, once we are out we can start clearing up the ‘mess’

[kent_white]

11 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Is it a mess because we’ve not left yet or a mess because we want to leave?

Well for me it's both.

I think leaving is, was and remains a monumentally shit idea. 3 years down the line and still largely in a state of impasse with the very real possibility that this could drag on for an equal length of time again and I don't think you could conceivably call it anything other than a mess.

If you think you're frustrated as a leaver - imagine being someone who thought all this was unessesary in the first place, and from where I'm sat at least, watching out global reputation and influence diminishing by the day. But still hoping for the sake of our democracy that we manage to leave - even though I think it will lead to us all being worse off and possibly the break up of a union of which I'm very proud.

Imagine that scenario for a second. And then think how monumentally depressing that must be. 

I might not be a nationalist - but I bet you as much as you have that I'm at least as patriotic and proud of our country as any leaver on this forum.

[Moon boy]

5 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Well for me it's both.

I think leaving is, was and remains a monumentally shit idea. 3 years down the line and still largely in a state of impasse with the very real possibility that this could drag on for an equal length of time again and I don't think you could conceivably call it anything other than a mess.

If you think you're frustrated as a leaver - imagine being someone who thought all this was unessesary in the first place, and from where I'm sat at least, watching out global reputation and influence diminishing by the day. But still hoping for the sake of our democracy that we manage to leave - even though I think it will lead to us all being worse off and possibly the break up of a union of which I'm very proud.

Imagine that scenario for a second. And then think how monumentally depressing that must be. 

I might not be a nationalist - but I bet you as much as you have that I'm at least as patriotic and proud of our country as any leaver on this forum.

Who do you blame for the ‘mess’?

[Casino]

26 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The relatively slightly weaker pound helps U.K. exports, and when you say plummeting, I remember when I purchased my property in Spain 6 years ago and way before Brexit it was 1.18 it is now 1.12, hardly a massive change. 

Over 5 per cent, even on your skewed figures

January 16, google tells me the pound was worth 1.35 euros

Between january 2016 to date, the pound has weakened by approx 20% against both euro and dollar

If google is right, obvs

 

 

[Casino]

29 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

 

He’s a gay Irish tv presenter

Fantastic

[Salford Trotter]

8 minutes ago, Casino said:

Over 5 per cent, even on your skewed figures

January 16, google tells me the pound was worth 1.35 euros

Between january 2016 to date, the pound has weakened by approx 20% against both euro and dollar

If google is right, obvs

 

 

In 2015 the euro was at 1.45 if I remember correctly

[Casino]

Seasonal correction, mate

[Traf]

https://gbp.exchangeconversions.com/eur/charts#chart_5years_rate

[kent_white]

11 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Who do you blame for the ‘mess’?

I think everyone needs to take some share of the blame. 

But mainly - David Cameron for putting the needs of his party above the needs of the country, and the leave campaign for putting the future of the country at a real risk without ever having a plan they were confident that they could get though parliament.

I don't buy this idea that remainer MP's have obfuscated for three years in the hope we'll all just give it up as a bad job. There might be one or two who are thinking like that - but I think most of them have been working damn hard to find a way of doing it that doesn't fuck the country at the same time.

I don't blame anyone from the general public who voted leave for the choice they made. You were given a choice and you made it. Although I must admit it was hardly a topic that many people talked about prior to being asked in a referendum.

And I don't blame anybody who voted leave for being frustrated that we haven't left yet. That's partly why I think it's such a mess. Even though I think it's tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot - I still think the vote should stand.

The only thing I do blame people for is the triumphalism - and there's been loads of it since the result. People have every right to vote for what they believe in when they get asked a question. They don't have every right to be a cunt. 

In fact - I take that back - they do have the right to be a cunt - but they then can't complain if people take exception to it.

 

[TM Trotter]

22 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Is it a mess because we’ve not left yet or a mess because we want to leave?

This is the overarching issue I have with Brexit. Everything to do with the whole affair is presented as a binary, when there are so many different interwoven strands to discuss, that are on a sliding scale. THAT is the 'mess' - it is such a politically, economically and emotionally complex beast, that to boil it down to a black/white binary (see the general Leaver sentiment of 'out means out') is monumentally ignorant at best.  

----

Couple of points to the response to my previous post (I haven't worked out how to multi-quote on my phone):

I said Europeans are mocking us - Find a national newspaper from any of the member states and look for a recent article on Brexit. Here are three, from Der Spiegel, Le Monde and El Pais. https://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/boris-johnson-wants-brexit-at-any-price-a-1285550.html

https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/09/12/le-psychodrame-du-brexit-est-aujourd-hui-le-produit-de-deux-pathologies-dont-on-pensait-le-royaume-uni-indemne-populisme-et-dogmatisme_5509384_3232.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/13/ideas/1568372806_518859.html

Look at the language, the caricatures, their complete disrespect towards Johnson; they are either taking the piss or have pity on us - they are seemingly incredulous that we're actually going to something so potentially self-destructive under the guise of 'taking back control' as a democratic nation (while under the leadership of a man with an electoral mandate that could fit in Wembley Stadium.)

---

Miami White said:

America, India etc will do business with us, they’ve all already said that.

I would never dispute that, yes, of course they will! But my God, it will be on their terms - because what other option do we have, once we've stopping trading on favourable terms with EASILY our biggest trade partner, and as a small part of the biggest trading bloc in the world?

Do you, think the rest of the major global economies are going to:

A: Roll over and play to the tune of a standalone country that has just thrown away 88% of its comparative bargaining power (comparing EU 27 GDP with the UK alone), perhaps just out of tradition, because the UK once, long ago, used to be the major global player, and it would be lovely to have Rule Britannia played by army bands in every time zone again.

Or

B: Circle like vultures over post-Brexit Britain, and impose whatever trade terms they want, for the economic benefit of their own countries?

Global economics dictates that in this instance, there isn't a sliding scale. We'll be a 'great trade partner' in the same way that there was a transaction of sorts when Tranmere and Ipswich played our knackered kids - for them, it was nothing more than an easy opportunity to bump up their GD.

[TM Trotter]

2 hours ago, Duck Egg said:

Not trying to point score or owt here but is it possible that Fox, Redwood and Davis may have all been correct if the UK had accepted the result of the referendum and presented a united front to the EU?

May, and now Johnson, have gone into every round of discussion, with the EU knowing that our parliament and a significant chunk of ours populace are doing everything within their power to prevent any deal or us leaving.

Yes, I agree. A united front would definitely have stood us in a better stead at the negotiating table to leave, perhaps saving a fair few quid on the 'divorce bill'.

But then we'd be in the same place, with non-financial hurdles such as the Irish backstop in the way, and perhaps the notion that we, as Brits, should always get more. May negotiated a deal but it was shot down in parliament - as a nation, we always expect the absolute best situation and others to doff their caps to us because we've been spoiled for centuries on the global stage.

Joining you in hypothesis, who's to say that as a united front, we'd get a deal with the EU, much better than we got a few months back, but then party politics / public backlash would dictate that no, we still want to leave with absolutely no negotiation, no quarter, no surrender. 

A good debate point, but unfortunately, that ship sailed the very moment Cameron sanctioned a referendum.

Edited September 16, 2019 by TM Trotter

[Salford Trotter]

2 hours ago, TM Trotter said:

This is the overarching issue I have with Brexit. Everything to do with the whole affair is presented as a binary, when there are so many different interwoven strands to discuss, that are on a sliding scale. THAT is the 'mess' - it is such a politically, economically and emotionally complex beast, that to boil it down to a black/white binary (see the general Leaver sentiment of 'out means out') is monumentally ignorant at best.  

----

Couple of points to the response to my previous post (I haven't worked out how to multi-quote on my phone):

I said Europeans are mocking us - Find a national newspaper from any of the member states and look for a recent article on Brexit. Here are three, from Der Spiegel, Le Monde and El Pais. https://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/boris-johnson-wants-brexit-at-any-price-a-1285550.html

https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/09/12/le-psychodrame-du-brexit-est-aujourd-hui-le-produit-de-deux-pathologies-dont-on-pensait-le-royaume-uni-indemne-populisme-et-dogmatisme_5509384_3232.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/13/ideas/1568372806_518859.html

Look at the language, the caricatures, their complete disrespect towards Johnson; they are either taking the piss or have pity on us - they are seemingly incredulous that we're actually going to something so potentially self-destructive under the guise of 'taking back control' as a democratic nation (while under the leadership of a man with an electoral mandate that could fit in Wembley Stadium.)

---

Miami White said:

America, India etc will do business with us, they’ve all already said that.

I would never dispute that, yes, of course they will! But my God, it will be on their terms - because what other option do we have, once we've stopping trading on favourable terms with EASILY our biggest trade partner, and as a small part of the biggest trading bloc in the world?

Do you, think the rest of the major global economies are going to:

A: Roll over and play to the tune of a standalone country that has just thrown away 88% of its comparative bargaining power (comparing EU 27 GDP with the UK alone), perhaps just out of tradition, because the UK once, long ago, used to be the major global player, and it would be lovely to have Rule Britannia played by army bands in every time zone again.

Or

B: Circle like vultures over post-Brexit Britain, and impose whatever trade terms they want, for the economic benefit of their own countries?

Global economics dictates that in this instance, there isn't a sliding scale. We'll be a 'great trade partner' in the same way that there was a transaction of sorts when Tranmere and Ipswich played our knackered kids - for them, it was nothing more than an easy opportunity to bump up their GD.

India has already made it clear they want a relaxation of immigration rules if they are to sign a trade agreement with the UK yet these significant points are completely ignored in this trade deal utopia spouted by brexiteers

https://www.ft.com/content/56074dda-95bd-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229

We have already seen no improvement in trade terms with the continuity deals already signed, in fact, Japan wants more concessions than they have already agreed with the EU which highlights our weak position

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/japan-seeking-big-concessions-from-britain-in-trade-talks-eu-brexit

The continuity deals we have signed so far, 45 days away from 31st October, are... 

How many deals have been rolled over?

After 3 years of negotiating the UK has signed just 13 "continuity" deals covering 38 countries or territories and not one of them would you consider as a super power. 

• South Korea (signed 22 August)
• Central America (18 July)
• Andean countries (15 May)
• Norway and Iceland (2 April)
• Caribbean countries (22 March)
• Pacific Islands (14 March)
• Liechtenstein (28 February)
• Israel (18 February)
• Palestinian Authority (18 February)
• Switzerland (11 February)
• The Faroe Islands (1 February)
• Eastern and Southern Africa (31 January)
• Chile (30 January)
•  

These examples show how we are undoubtedly weaker in terms of negotiating power outside of the EU but there is not one Leaver on here prepared to accept that position. If the facts are different then show me these facts!  

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Salford Trotter

[bolty58]

12 hours ago, TM Trotter said:

Nobody in their right mind voted for a hard, No Deal exit. We were all promised by the liars running the Leave campaign, that this would be a walk in the park, that coming to a Free Trade Agreement would be 'one of the easiest in human history' (Liam Fox), that 'getting out of the EU can be quick and easy as the UK holds most of the cards' (John Redwood), that leaving would be 'like threading the eye of a needle... it is easy enough' (David Davis) 

I could quite happily accept the referendum result if it was backed with any modicum of an economic and/or social plan to deal with it, but nothing from government over the past three years has been anything more than piss and panic. The continent is laughing at us, the global superpowers are rubbing their hands together thinking about how easily they'll be able to bend us over once we're out on our own. 

BTW, I'm not spreading 'project fear', I'm just exhausted with the mountains of bullshit we have all been fed from the likes of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage, all of whom are the most self-serving, arrogant c*nts in British politics. You might even say that the personal gains they stand to make from Brexit is an 'act of politicial bastardry' and is as 'anti-democratic as it gets'.

So you don't accept the premise that campaigning to Stop Brexit when the referendum result has not been enacted is anti-democratic?

Righto, I'll file you under 'Z' with other zoons off here who just cannot (or will not) see the damage that will do to our entire political system.

It won't happen but just imagine if those treacherous centrist dogs won an election and became the majority party or even government. What would then happen if the other parties just said "Nope, we are not accepting the result of that election based on your own precedent set when you ignored the 2016 referendum result"?

Madness not to implement the will of the people expressed in a democratic vote as the LibDem's very own grandee Mr. Paddy Ashdown said at the time of the referendum.

[Mounts Kipper]

8 hours ago, TM Trotter said:

This is the overarching issue I have with Brexit. Everything to do with the whole affair is presented as a binary, when there are so many different interwoven strands to discuss, that are on a sliding scale. THAT is the 'mess' - it is such a politically, economically and emotionally complex beast, that to boil it down to a black/white binary (see the general Leaver sentiment of 'out means out') is monumentally ignorant at best.  

----

Couple of points to the response to my previous post (I haven't worked out how to multi-quote on my phone):

I said Europeans are mocking us - Find a national newspaper from any of the member states and look for a recent article on Brexit. Here are three, from Der Spiegel, Le Monde and El Pais. https://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/boris-johnson-wants-brexit-at-any-price-a-1285550.html

https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/09/12/le-psychodrame-du-brexit-est-aujourd-hui-le-produit-de-deux-pathologies-dont-on-pensait-le-royaume-uni-indemne-populisme-et-dogmatisme_5509384_3232.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/13/ideas/1568372806_518859.html

Look at the language, the caricatures, their complete disrespect towards Johnson; they are either taking the piss or have pity on us - they are seemingly incredulous that we're actually going to something so potentially self-destructive under the guise of 'taking back control' as a democratic nation (while under the leadership of a man with an electoral mandate that could fit in Wembley Stadium.)

---

Miami White said:

America, India etc will do business with us, they’ve all already said that.

I would never dispute that, yes, of course they will! But my God, it will be on their terms - because what other option do we have, once we've stopping trading on favourable terms with EASILY our biggest trade partner, and as a small part of the biggest trading bloc in the world?

Do you, think the rest of the major global economies are going to:

A: Roll over and play to the tune of a standalone country that has just thrown away 88% of its comparative bargaining power (comparing EU 27 GDP with the UK alone), perhaps just out of tradition, because the UK once, long ago, used to be the major global player, and it would be lovely to have Rule Britannia played by army bands in every time zone again.

Or

B: Circle like vultures over post-Brexit Britain, and impose whatever trade terms they want, for the economic benefit of their own countries?

Global economics dictates that in this instance, there isn't a sliding scale. We'll be a 'great trade partner' in the same way that there was a transaction of sorts when Tranmere and Ipswich played our knackered kids - for them, it was nothing more than an easy opportunity to bump up their GD.

FFS! Take a chill pill, there will be a deal, Boris just doing what is blatantly necessary to get the deal over the line and we should have taken this line2 years ago, if remainers want to scupper the deal, keep bleating. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Farrelli]

5 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

FFS! Take a chill pill, there will be a deal, Boris just doing what is blatantly necessary to get the deal over the line and we should have taken this line2 years ago, if remainers want to scupper the deal, keep bleating. 

The WA is one thing, still not agreed after more than three years.  We then have to start working with the EU on our future trading arrangements (ie. the difficult bit).  Most sane people are now asking themselves how much economic damage we are doing to ourselves. 

You are still trying to blame remainers when TM's deal was mostly scuppered by the ERG/DUP.  If the government had taken the hard line of 'no deal' two years ago, as you suggest, I think we would have had a second referendum by now.  I still think this is the way it should go and at least it will be sorted one way or the other.