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Wanderers Ways - passion not fashion
miamiwhite

In Or Out Again

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32 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

As part of the solution to continuing with no borders on the island of Ireland I’m sure the UK border control could be operated from Ireland and anyone entering Ireland who are travelling onto Northern Ireland must have a valid visa to enter the UK. 

Of course that’s not perfect system as can be seen in Calais where the UK border force are also present, there again no border control is 100% perfect anywhere in the world. 

So, someone pitches up in Ireland for a few hours then decides to travel across the border into NI on one of the 200 plus road border crossings. How do you stop them? Same for goods.

If you don't stop them then the same arrangements have to be put in place in Dover and elsewhere. 

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7 hours ago, Jol_BWFC said:

I agree with what you have put (save for the Government being given another crack at it - the current one, at least). TM has miscalculated / misplayed things and it's been a shambles from the start of her tenure. But also there was no Brexit Plan from the Government / Cameron prior to the vote, so it's not just her that is to blame. Without major overhaul, I can only see that we're going to lurch from one mess to another.

 

As such, if / when May's deal is defeated, my view is that we need to take the opportunity to actually pause and work out what the hell is the best course of action for this country and how best to deliver Brexit. In my opinion, that means postponing the current leave date (by 6 months or 12 months) to give some breathing space / time to try and establish the way forward. It's probable it will also require a general election. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not advocating a second in/out referendum.

 

I'd like to think that the way forward could involve a cross-party approach and would be a Parliament driven process, rather than a Government led one. Certainly, the current Government can't organise a piss up in a brewery (or decide amongst themselves what they want for Brexit). That might also help alleviate some of the points scoring (perhaps wishful thinking).  A united front would surely help in further negotiations with the EU (which I think will be inevitable). 

 

The above is just my view. Others will disagree. In any event the above is never going to happen, because of the very nature of the self-serving individuals who are involved in the process and because of the sheer differences of opinions that lie on both sides of the House.

 

To summarise - it's all fucked.

Two good post’s from TMGR and Jol,  Parliament at the moment will not represent the the result of the Referendum for various reasons, 

Remainers are obviously in a majority, TM’s deal will not be accepted by a majority on Tuesday, what happens next is difficult to predict, i suspect that there is now a  group of cross party Remain MP’s who, with the help of the Speaker, will try to block Brexit completely, Soubery, Greive, Chukka etc, if this is allowed to happen the consequences for Democracy and faith in political solutions to solve problems will be bad.

When TM loses this vote she should stand down, time should be allowed for the Conservative party to elect a new leader on the assumption that when that is completed they call an immediate General Election. The public will then have a choice to choose a party that reflects their view on Europe. TheEU have said they would only agree to delay article 50 in the event of GE or another Referendum. I am not in favour of another ‘Losers vote’

I suspect though that when TM’s deal is defeated on Tuesday the previously unmovable EU will suddenly unlock the legal release from the Irish backstop and TM will then offer the current deal again and this time it may scrape through Parliament, which will move the process on a bit but will then lead to horse trading on fisheries, free movement, Gibraltar etc for the next 2years, and we will still be throwing money at the EU and ultimately end up with a shit deal.

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Jol, I accept your sentiments wrt throwing it back to the current government.

It's just that as things stand that's what we've got. A bit like Ken!

Don't know what will happen, though I sense, like moon boy, that TM will go, and an election may well result.

Be interesting to see who ends up leading the Tories. Need to get it right, not sure remain Tories will come on board so need a tougher, leave oriented leader.

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52 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

So, someone pitches up in Ireland for a few hours then decides to travel across the border into NI on one of the 200 plus road border crossings. How do you stop them? Same for goods.

If you don't stop them then the same arrangements have to be put in place in Dover and elsewhere. 

You can’t stop them just like you can’t stop Iranians on a dinghy crossing the channel. Like I said in my original post “no border is 100% perfect”  They become illiegal immigrants and are dealt with accordingly. 

Edited by Mounts Kipper

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18 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

You can’t stop them just like you can’t stop Iranians on a dinghy crossing the channel. Like I said in my original post “no border is 100% perfect”  They become illiegal immigrants and are dealt with accordingly. 

:lol:

Walking down a street between Northern and Southern Ireland is slightly less hassle than crossing the channel on a dinghy.

Ireland is still going to be in the EU.

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49 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

You can’t stop them just like you can’t stop Iranians on a dinghy crossing the channel. Like I said in my original post “no border is 100% perfect”  They become illiegal immigrants and are dealt with accordingly. 

Peak Mounts.

 

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2 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

As part of the solution to continuing with no borders on the island of Ireland I’m sure the UK border control could be operated from Ireland and anyone entering Ireland who are travelling onto Northern Ireland must have a valid visa to enter the UK. 

Of course that’s not perfect system as can be seen in Calais where the UK border force are also present, there again no border control is 100% perfect anywhere in the world. 

If you add uk border control between NI and ROI it contravenes the GFA and you have one side kicking off

If you do not add UK border control you have an open border which has the other side kicking off as it is treating NI differently than the rest of the EU.

There is no practical solution to this it is not the EU demanding something it is the fact that there are 2 sides in Ireland that want different things so you will never make both happy. One side is back up by the GFA the other is the governments majority in the House of Commons. Given historically neither side is known for willingness to compromise it is a real issue.

But everything is working out as you predicted/envisaged ..............................

 

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Mounts

Just step outside your trench for a brief minute. I'm saying this in a genuine attempt to make you realise there are other sides to this that you cannot ignore.

Massive, billion pound companies are not "preparing" for Brexit. This week, massive companies have decided not to risk anything and sacked hundreds of British workers because they are not prepared to "work around" whatever happens. That is, good outcome or bad, they don't care anymore. They've simply made a cold, business decision to leave us to our own devices.

The border issue in Ireland cannot be solved because of the inherent sectarianism there. Paint it any way you like, that border kills Brexit stone dead.

Just for once admit that this is not going well.

The problem is that I just don't think it affects you personally so you are able to remain aloof and detached. It's easy to pontificate when you don't have to speak to people who have just lost their job because of this. I have, and it's devastating. These guys have done nothing more than a good job, but been told it's curtains because of Brexit.

You seem a decent, smart blok, but if this costs you personally, i think you'd at least admit it's not the dreamy utopia you tell us it is.

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7 minutes ago, Spider said:

Mounts

Just step outside your trench for a brief minute. I'm saying this in a genuine attempt to make you realise there are other sides to this that you cannot ignore.

Massive, billion pound companies are not "preparing" for Brexit. This week, massive companies have decided not to risk anything and sacked hundreds of British workers because they are not prepared to "work around" whatever happens. That is, good outcome or bad, they don't care anymore. They've simply made a cold, business decision to leave us to our own devices.

The border issue in Ireland cannot be solved because of the inherent sectarianism there. Paint it any way you like, that border kills Brexit stone dead.

Just for once admit that this is not going well.

The problem is that I just don't think it affects you personally so you are able to remain aloof and detached. It's easy to pontificate when you don't have to speak to people who have just lost their job because of this. I have, and it's devastating. These guys have done nothing more than a good job, but been told it's curtains because of Brexit.

You seem a decent, smart blok, but if this costs you personally, i think you'd at least admit it's not the dreamy utopia you tell us it is.

The problem is clear - Brexiteers cannot admit they were wrong. Or misled. Its why they continually dig themselves in. 

Ideologically it will be great to not be in the EU. I think virtually everyone accepts that. But like socialism being something that loads think is ideologically great, practicality is intervening. 

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1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The problem is clear - Brexiteers cannot admit they were wrong. Or misled. Its why they continually dig themselves in. 

Ideologically it will be great to not be in the EU. I think virtually everyone accepts that. But like socialism being something that loads think is ideologically great, practicality is intervening. 

I voted for Brexit, so am culpable. I dislike the EU and it's obvious plans for a mega-state. 

Unfortunately, it's all been done on the back of a fag packet. A step back and a rethink is needed. There's no harm in putting your hands up and just admitting it's not working out. Fuck me, most people do it every day of their lives.

Half the problem is that sides have been taken and it's turned into a battle of wills so that one "side" can claim victory. There is no victory to be had with Brexit because there will be winners and losers.

Idealogically, leaving the EU is a great idea. As you say, the practicalities need more time. I see no issue with taking as long as we need to make it work for as many people as possible.

 

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10 minutes ago, Spider said:

I voted for Brexit, so am culpable. I dislike the EU and it's obvious plans for a mega-state. 

Unfortunately, it's all been done on the back of a fag packet. A step back and a rethink is needed. There's no harm in putting your hands up and just admitting it's not working out. Fuck me, most people do it every day of their lives.

Half the problem is that sides have been taken and it's turned into a battle of wills so that one "side" can claim victory. There is no victory to be had with Brexit because there will be winners and losers.

Idealogically, leaving the EU is a great idea. As you say, the practicalities need more time. I see no issue with taking as long as we need to make it work for as many people as possible.

 

See there are ways of leaving that wouldn't end up in the mess we are. EFTA - then work on a free trade deal over a few years and take the time to see how we can manage the border issue and customs etc....

That would have been a sensible way to go. Get out of the political machine but keep the free trade and customs arrangement whilst we work out how we can (or if we should) exit those over time.

 

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55 minutes ago, Spider said:

Mounts

Just step outside your trench for a brief minute. I'm saying this in a genuine attempt to make you realise there are other sides to this that you cannot ignore.

Massive, billion pound companies are not "preparing" for Brexit. This week, massive companies have decided not to risk anything and sacked hundreds of British workers because they are not prepared to "work around" whatever happens. That is, good outcome or bad, they don't care anymore. They've simply made a cold, business decision to leave us to our own devices.

The border issue in Ireland cannot be solved because of the inherent sectarianism there. Paint it any way you like, that border kills Brexit stone dead.

Just for once admit that this is not going well.

The problem is that I just don't think it affects you personally so you are able to remain aloof and detached. It's easy to pontificate when you don't have to speak to people who have just lost their job because of this. I have, and it's devastating. These guys have done nothing more than a good job, but been told it's curtains because of Brexit.

You seem a decent, smart blok, but if this costs you personally, i think you'd at least admit it's not the dreamy utopia you tell us it is.

People losing their jobs though, that's just tough shit, these jobs will be replaced the minute we leave the EU, they'll have higher wages and more disposable income - so those affected only really need to worry about it for the next 2 or 3 months, then it'll be absolutely brilliant. You need to believe. 


It's just a shame that you cant actually get a blue passport until later in the year, that's the only issue we should be concerned about, why are the government not ensuring we can get our blue passports on April 1st? - It's a farce!

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59 minutes ago, Spider said:

, but if this costs you personally, i think you'd at least admit it's not the dreamy utopia you tell us it is.

Many of those on the Brexit side, now happily say that they always knew they would be worse off in the short term, but it's worth it   -  I'm guessing Mounts falls into this category

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3 minutes ago, Sweep said:

Many of those on the Brexit side, now happily say that they always knew they would be worse off in the short term, but it's worth it   -  I'm guessing Mounts falls into this category

Utter and complete bollocks. Tell you what, if they're that happy, they can give me some of their money to make up for it.

Because this is all about money.

 

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Actually I think it’s about having a voice.

Money, or rather the lack of it, did have a part to play; but this was an emotional decision 20 years in the making.

 

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1 hour ago, Ani said:

If you add uk border control between NI and ROI it contravenes the GFA and you have one side kicking off

If you do not add UK border control you have an open border which has the other side kicking off as it is treating NI differently than the rest of the EU.

There is no practical solution to this it is not the EU demanding something it is the fact that there are 2 sides in Ireland that want different things so you will never make both happy. One side is back up by the GFA the other is the governments majority in the House of Commons. Given historically neither side is known for willingness to compromise it is a real issue.

But everything is working out as you predicted/envisaged ..............................

 

The UK border control would be on Irish soil, just as there is a UK border control on French soil so there would be no difference. I did not and never have predicted the journey. 

I only predicted a deal would be agreed that would allow us to stop free movement,  Tariff free trade with the rest of the EU, and regaining our sovereignty including end to ECJ jurisdiction.

 In retrospect and given the hindrance and disruption caused by meddling remainer's and I include the Brexit negotiating team and remainer's across the political spectrum its possible we would of been better going straight to WTO and negotiating a free trade deal or the Canada +++ option as a starting point to leaving.

 Even with the problems we have experienced on the road to freeing ourselves from the EU I would vote exactly the same way again, even more so. But for sure our political leaders have let the country down big time.

Edited by Mounts Kipper

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45 minutes ago, Spider said:

I voted for Brexit, so am culpable. I dislike the EU and it's obvious plans for a mega-state. 

Unfortunately, it's all been done on the back of a fag packet. A step back and a rethink is needed. There's no harm in putting your hands up and just admitting it's not working out. Fuck me, most people do it every day of their lives.

Half the problem is that sides have been taken and it's turned into a battle of wills so that one "side" can claim victory. There is no victory to be had with Brexit because there will be winners and losers.

Idealogically, leaving the EU is a great idea. As you say, the practicalities need more time. I see no issue with taking as long as we need to make it work for as many people as possible.

 

“Idealogically, leaving the EU is a great idea” and you and others on here want to accept as a fact that the UK, a Sovereign country with its own Parliament, cannot leave the EU, a political organisation that is an undemocratic, self serving, protectionist club run by and for the benefit of Europe’s Elite and Multinational Businesses, where businesses can move freely around Europe looking for the cheapest workforce and taking advantage of any local financial incentives. An organisation that expects the UK to pay £36mill a WEEK (less rebate) to keep stum.

Large Multi National companies like Jaguar/ Landrover always move thousands of jobs around the world when it suits them, if you are one of those workers, yes, short term the future looks shit but other large groups of workers, miners, steel workers, clog makers have had to deal with change, a country can’t move forward without causing problems for some sections of the public.

When/if we leave the EU and we are free of EU restrictions what’s stopping us making our country more attractive for Businesses to move here, that’s what the EU are terrified of us achieving.

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3 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

“Idealogically, leaving the EU is a great idea” and you and others on here want to accept as a fact that the UK, a Sovereign country with its own Parliament, cannot leave the EU, a political organisation that is an undemocratic, self serving, protectionist club run by and for the benefit of Europe’s Elite and Multinational Businesses, where businesses can move freely around Europe looking for the cheapest workforce and taking advantage of any local financial incentives. An organisation that expects the UK to pay £36mill a WEEK (less rebate) to keep stum.

Large Multi National companies like Jaguar/ Landrover always move thousands of jobs around the world when it suits them, if you are one of those workers, yes, short term the future looks shit but other large groups of workers, miners, steel workers, clog makers have had to deal with change, a country can’t move forward without causing problems for some sections of the public.

When/if we leave the EU and we are free of EU restrictions what’s stopping us making our country more attractive for Businesses to move here, that’s what the EU are terrified of us achieving.

Idealogically, communism is a good idea. Practically, it's bollocks.

What's your point?

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16 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The UK border control would be on Irish soil, just as there is a UK border control on French soil so there would be no difference. I did not and never have predicted the journey. 

I only predicted a deal would be agreed that would allow us to stop free movement,  Tariff free trade with the rest of the EU, and regaining our sovereignty including end to ECJ jurisdiction.

 In retrospect and given the hindrance and disruption caused by meddling remainer's and I include the Brexit negotiating team and remainer's across the political spectrum its possible we would of been better going straight to WTO and negotiating a free trade deal or the Canada +++ option as a starting point to leaving.

 Even with the problems we have experienced on the road to freeing ourselves from the EU I would vote exactly the same way again, even more so. But for sure our political leaders have let the country down big time.

We have UK border control in France as we are in EU. If you think the solution to the Ireland issue is moving a border check a few yards you are wrong. 

 

You say hinderance and might be right in some instances but there are also deep and complex issues that will not be answered by a magical purple passport. Ignoring them undermines leaving successfully. 

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18 minutes ago, Spider said:

Idealogically, communism is a good idea. Practically, it's bollocks.

What's your point?

Not being arsey but why did you vote leave?

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Perhaps the whole subject would be less captious if people were stopped from buying the Guardian until its all over. Particularly those reading Polly Toynbee.

Edited by overseas
spelling mistake

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1 minute ago, overseas said:

Perhaps the whole subject would be less captious if people were stopped from buying the Guardian until its all over. Particularly those reading Polly Totnbee.

Sorry but nothing comes close to those papers who call people with opposing views "saboteurs and enemies of the people". Polly Toynbee opining and whining on in her column is nowhere near that level.

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I think if people stopped getting their politics from Facebook, we'd be in a far better place.

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1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

 "saboteurs and enemies of the people".

:rofl:

Quality. The funny papers.

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7 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Not being arsey but why did you vote leave?

Fair question

As i said, the EU project gives me the creeps. They are taking too much control, and you can see this in the way they are bullying the UK over it's exit. If they were the fair, democratic and modern organisation they purport to be, they would accept the decision, thank us for our honesty and work to a mutual exit strategy that made this fairly easy.

Unfortunately, they have sulked and to a degree made it harder than they should.

Ipso facto - they're cunts.

However, this brings us to today, where we need to step back and reconsider how to do it (we have to leave, that was the choice and we stick with it).

If it takes 5 years, it takes 5 years. It's a one shot deal so why do we have to rush and fuck it up?

You don't cut a leg off with an axe and kick the patient out onto the street in this day and age. You deal with it properly. If you catch my shitty metaphor?

 

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