Site Supporter Winchester White Posted June 9, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, boltondiver said: Lib Dems Short for democratic, who won’t honour a democratic vote?! Correct. We are a parliamentary democracy therefore the proper way to deliver Brexit is for a party (UKIP at the time, TBP now) to win enough seats at a GE to pass the necessary legislation through both houses. That is our democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 1 hour ago, MickyD said: My post makes no reference to the way voting went in the recent EU elections. It made reference to the referendum vote where remain voters marginally lost out to leave voters and haven't stopped bleating about it since. Ok but I still dont understand how you can say that the ones who signed the petition didnt bother voting in the referendum as there is no evidence for that ? There are also many younger remain voters who werent old enough in 2016 but are now, as is the case with my son. Re. Bleating, I think Brexit is too important an issue and potentially damaging to our economy to just let happen and say nothing. Especially as the leave campaign was based on lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Winchester White said: Correct. We are a parliamentary democracy therefore the proper way to deliver Brexit is for a party (UKIP at the time, TBP now) to win enough seats at a GE to pass the necessary legislation through both houses. That is our democracy. Until Parliament delegated it to us, the people, in the referendum, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 30 minutes ago, Farrelli said: Ok but I still dont understand how you can say that the ones who signed the petition didnt bother voting in the referendum as there is no evidence for that ? There are also many younger remain voters who werent old enough in 2016 but are now, as is the case with my son. Re. Bleating, I think Brexit is too important an issue and potentially damaging to our economy to just let happen and say nothing. Especially as the leave campaign was based on lies. The lies thing is just nonsense, and I’m surprised someone so clearly as bright as you, won’t or can’t move on from such blinkered nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, boltondiver said: The lies thing is just nonsense, and I’m surprised someone so clearly as bright as you, won’t or can’t move on from such blinkered nonsense. Please explain why it's nonsense when it's acknowledged that both sides lied? Edited June 9, 2019 by Salford Trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ani Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, boltondiver said: Until Parliament delegated it to us, the people, in the referendum, of course. They did not do that. They held an advisory vote that was non binding. They do so thinking Remain would win and fucked up royally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter MickyD Posted June 10, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 6 hours ago, Farrelli said: Ok but I still dont understand how you can say that the ones who signed the petition didnt bother voting in the referendum as there is no evidence for that ? There are also many younger remain voters who werent old enough in 2016 but are now, as is the case with my son. Re. Bleating, I think Brexit is too important an issue and potentially damaging to our economy to just let happen and say nothing. Especially as the leave campaign was based on lies. It's fairly unusual for someone to be so literal about a post that is obviously general. But crack on with your skewed reasoning. For the record, tomato, tomayto. Strange how the spin doctors (who have spent a fortune changing negative to positive by clever use of words) suddenly become lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 2 hours ago, MickyD said: It's fairly unusual for someone to be so literal about a post that is obviously general. But crack on with your skewed reasoning. For the record, tomato, tomayto. Strange how the spin doctors (who have spent a fortune changing negative to positive by clever use of words) suddenly become lies. 6 million people signed a petition and 16 million voted. Therefore nothing to support your comment. Sorry if you think that is skewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 8 hours ago, boltondiver said: The lies thing is just nonsense, and I’m surprised someone so clearly as bright as you, won’t or can’t move on from such blinkered nonsense. Come on BD, the crux of the debate has been about this and it's accepted by everyone that both sides lied. I will move on after a second referendum and if that shows a majority still want to leave then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Farrelli said: Come on BD, the crux of the debate has been about this and it's accepted by everyone that both sides lied. I will move on after a second referendum and if that shows a majority still want to leave then so be it. You don’t get a second referendum (even a remain parliament has ruled that out) If the first isn’t actioned. Any second vote should be on any deal agreed or leave on WTO. Any second in out referendum will create utter chaos, bitterness and division and solve nothing. Edited June 10, 2019 by Mounts Kipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 24 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: You don’t get a second referendum (even a remain parliament has ruled that out) If the first isn’t actioned. Any second vote should be on any deal agreed or leave on WTO. Any second in out referendum will create utter chaos, bitterness and division and solve nothing. I can see a few twists and turns in this whole debate yet to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ani Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: You don’t get a second referendum (even a remain parliament has ruled that out) If the first isn’t actioned. Any second vote should be on any deal agreed or leave on WTO. Any second in out referendum will create utter chaos, bitterness and division and solve nothing. Mounts what are WTO terms ? You keep using them as an option. I know what the acronym means just not sure what the terms are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted June 10, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 9 hours ago, Ani said: They did not do that. They held an advisory vote that was non binding. They do so thinking Remain would win and fucked up royally. The still delegated it, binding or not. It was put into law. As was enacting the result. Not anticipating the result is irrelevant, naive maybe, but they agreed to honour it. For Mr Winchester to somehow suggest that an election is the only democratic way is a weird one. A referendum is an extremely democratic excercise. There'll be many countries that will never get one; let alone see it enacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted June 10, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Ani said: Mounts what are WTO terms ? You keep using them as an option. I know what the acronym means just not sure what the terms are. Bad ones Ani. There isn't a single country on the planet apparently that doesn't have some form of trade deal with another country. If we leave with no deal, come 1st Nov we will be leaving the worlds largest trading bloc and 81 good reciprocal trade deals wirh other countries. Sure we will get some up and running quite quickly but the biggies will be the EU, US, Japan, China, India, etc. These will take years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ani Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: The still delegated it, binding or not. It was put into law. As was enacting the result. Not anticipating the result is irrelevant, naive maybe, but they agreed to honour it. For Mr Winchester to somehow suggest that an election is the only democratic way is a weird one. A referendum is an extremely democratic excercise. There'll be many countries that will never get one; let alone see it enacted. We could argue the semantics my point is that parliament is the top of our democratic process. Any referendum has no status in that process. This whole process helps demonstrate why. To be clear not saying let’s start again. The problem is that Cameron went down this route for personal/party reasons in the first place. I am sure one thing Leavers and Remainers agree on is that we are currently in a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted June 10, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: The still delegated it, binding or not. It was put into law. As was enacting the result. Not anticipating the result is irrelevant, naive maybe, but they agreed to honour it. For Mr Winchester to somehow suggest that an election is the only democratic way is a weird one. A referendum is an extremely democratic excercise. There'll be many countries that will never get one; let alone see it enacted. Because our system of parliamentary democracy isn't set up for one. Sure, the Tories offerred one but the cabinet in the main were against leaving. They said they would enact the result but had no plan to do so. Hell, the folk in charge at the time have fucked off! The reason we have this mess is because there is no majority in Parliament to shoot ourselves in the foot. The only way to do so is to gain a majority with fellow foot destroyers and pass legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 10 hours ago, Farrelli said: Ok but I still dont understand how you can say that the ones who signed the petition didnt bother voting in the referendum as there is no evidence for that ? There are also many younger remain voters who werent old enough in 2016 but are now, as is the case with my son. Re. Bleating, I think Brexit is too important an issue and potentially damaging to our economy to just let happen and say nothing. Especially as the leave campaign was based on lies. These terms - 'Screaching' and 'bleating'. They're the equivalent of calling someone racist for voting leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 I see we have agreed a continuity deal with South Korea that no better than the EU FTA that is currently in place. I thought we could negotiate better terms, free from the shackles of the EU? What a load of baloney that claim was and another fib from the Leave side. That's 12 out of 40 continuity deals done in 3 years only another 28 to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, kent_white said: These terms - 'Screaching' and 'bleating'. They're the equivalent of calling someone racist for voting leave. Throw "skriking" in there too😂 Edited June 10, 2019 by Salford Trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 49 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: You don’t get a second referendum (even a remain parliament has ruled that out) If the first isn’t actioned. Any second vote should be on any deal agreed or leave on WTO. Any second in out referendum will create utter chaos, bitterness and division and solve nothing. A second referendum is a way to unlock this and it is favoured by 3 of the main parties. The Government may not want it but they have no majority for any of their options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, Farrelli said: A second referendum is a way to unlock this and it is favoured by 3 of the main parties. The Government may not want it but they have no majority for any of their options. Favoured by which 3 main parties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 35 minutes ago, Winchester White said: Bad ones Ani. There isn't a single country on the planet apparently that doesn't have some form of trade deal with another country. If we leave with no deal, come 1st Nov we will be leaving the worlds largest trading bloc and 81 good reciprocal trade deals wirh other countries. Sure we will get some up and running quite quickly but the biggies will be the EU, US, Japan, China, India, etc. These will take years. Then in any referendum folk who don’t want WTO or no deal should vote for the deal on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: Then in any referendum folk who don’t want WTO or no deal should vote for the deal on the table. Is that the same deal that you wouldn't sign unless there are changes to the irish backstop? Is that the same deal that is almost universally described as "worse than staying in the EU"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted June 10, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: Is that the same deal that you wouldn't sign unless there are changes to the irish backstop? Is that the same deal that is almost universally described as "worse than staying in the EU"? It really is a mess. Thing is, this is only a withdrawal agreement, it isn't a deal on what is to come permanent. That has yet to be even discussed! No one bar a very few, really understood the complexities of leaving the EU before the referendum. And those that did were not prominent enough, ignored or dismissed. Yet we the joe public were supposed to know all the pros and cons and vote on it with all the political bullshit presented on both sides. All we have is more and more entrenchment and folk calling each other stupid names because folk are arguing against their stance. Cameron has a lot to answer for the shiny faced cuntpipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: Favoured by which 3 main parties? LDs, SNP, Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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