Politics

[Not in Crawley]

4 hours ago, Casino said:

Lots of people lose jobs through no fault of their own

They don't get supported for a couple of years

Because of a global pandemic? Come on, you are brighter than that.

[RoadRunnerFan]

5 hours ago, Cheese said:

I'm pretty sure the rules are that you're not allowed to apply for other jobs or carry out other paid work whilst furloughed... That was the whole point of it wasn't it? So employers wouldn't just make everyone redundant....

Nope. You can do paid work as long as the employer who has put you on furlough agrees to it. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-you-could-be-covered-by-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

18 months into this I'm feeling that it's a bit too generous. 

[Cheese]

Just now, RoadRunnerFan said:

Nope. You can do paid work as long as the employer who has put you on furlough agrees to it. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-you-could-be-covered-by-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

18 months into this I'm feeling that it's a bit too generous. 

Ah. That seems a lot more fair than forcing people to sit on their arse all day for 18 months if they'd rather be grafting. Assuming both employer and employee are being honest with the system of course...

[RoadRunnerFan]

 

15 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Ah. That seems a lot more fair than forcing people to sit on their arse all day for 18 months if they'd rather be grafting. Assuming both employer and employee are being honest with the system of course...

I've had to do more unpaid overtime alongside increased unpaid caring responsibilities as a direct result of covid so i'll happily admit I'm a bit bitter. 

Also you don't have to force people to sit on their arse, get them to work in test an trace, social care, nhs etc for their furlough - get that decisions were taken at rapid pace in March 20 but we are 18 months in now. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by RoadRunnerFan

[Spider]

 

[Spider]

Looks like telling the red wall that £350million would come from Brexit then taking it out of their pockets hasn’t worked

[Not in Crawley]

13 hours ago, Cheese said:

Ah. That seems a lot more fair than forcing people to sit on their arse all day for 18 months if they'd rather be grafting. Assuming both employer and employee are being honest with the system of course...

Yeah my mrs did freelance work throughout - wasn't much but helped with the top up.

[Winchester White]

Brexit is going well I see, project fear, we hold all the cards... 🎣

[Not in Crawley]

1 hour ago, Winchester White said:

Brexit is going well I see, project fear, we hold all the cards... 🎣

We're tired of experts.

[paulhanley]

A very interesting piece for the remaining remainers to read, by Daniel Hannan in The Telegraph. I realise the fact that it's by him will lead to it being dismissed out of hand by the Lord Adonis/Owen Jones fans of Wanderersways.... but do please read to the end. Those remainer rose-tinted spectacles do give you a false impression of what people on the continent really think.

Of course Barnier has become a Eurosceptic. That's what the French want

Candidate Barnier, unlike Commissioner Barnier, needs to be aware of the public mood

We must recover our legal sovereignty,” Michel Barnier told a rally last week. “We should no longer be subject to rulings by the European Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights!”
“Tiens,” as we Old Brussels Hands say. “Eh bien, je jamais.”

This is, of course, the same Michel Barnier who kept insisting during the Brexit talks that Britain remain subordinate to both those courts. But that was then. Barnier, in those days, was part of the system. A loyal Europhile, he wanted Brussels to be as puissant as possible. Now that he is running for office, he sings a very different song. The man who kept insisting that free movement of people was indispensable to the EU now wants a moratorium on immigration and changes to the Schengen deal.

Candidate Barnier, unlike Commissioner Barnier, needs to be aware of the public mood. There was, for example, outrage in France a few weeks ago when the EU ruled that French soldiers should be covered by the 35-hour week. In the run-up to an election, candidates must pretend to share that outrage.

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It was in the pages of the Sunday Telegraph twenty years ago that I promulgated Hannan’s First Law of Politics: No party is Eurosceptic while in office. It has held pretty solidly since then. Plenty of opposition politicians have railed against Brussels, just as the sleek Isérois is now doing; but it always ends when they are elected.

Even that flinty souverainiste Václav Klaus heartbreakingly folded, signing the Lisbon Treaty as President of the Czech Republic. Indeed, one of Boris Johnson’s many accomplishments is that he is the only national leader to have broken Hannan’s First Law.

Listening to the suddenly patriotic Barnier is a reminder that, when it comes to dislike of European integration, the British electorate is in no sense unusual. That statement might seem surprising. Continental commentators, like British Remainers, have convinced themselves that the 2016 vote was a result of some peculiar British arrogance deriving from imperial nostalgia. Several British Leavers like to stress the institutions that made this country exceptional, from the centrality of Parliament to the common law.

Yet, at the time of the referendum, the proportion of British people expressing an unfavourable view of the EU (48 per cent) was pretty average. It was in line with opinion in, say, Spain (49 per cent) or Germany (48 per cent), and significantly lower than in France (61 per cent). Emmanuel Macron admitted shortly afterwards that his countrymen would “probably” have voted to leave had they been given the opportunity. As the historian Robert Tombs puts it in his latest book, This Sovereign Isle, “the British, paradoxically, voted as typical Europeans.”

Quite. The UK referendum was the latest in a long line of national plebiscites that had gone against the European project. Denmark voted against the Maastricht Treaty. Ireland voted against the Nice and Lisbon Treaties. France and the Netherlands voted against the European Constitution. Denmark and Sweden voted against joining the euro. Greece voted against the bailouts. All these votes, except those on the single currency, were either ignored or re-run. Before 2016, the EU had never taken no for an answer.

The really unusual thing about Britain was not that it voted against the EU. It wasn’t even that it had kept its currency, so making withdrawal technically more feasible. No, the exceptional thing, the extraordinary thing, was that it stuck to its guns.

Eurocrats had never before encountered such stubbornness. They assumed – not unreasonably given their record up to that point – that they would be able to browbeat us into backing down, with or without a second vote. Hence the position they adopted in the aftermath of the vote, namely “to offer such hard terms that the British would rather stay in”.

Who spoke those words? Why, none other than Michel Barnier. It’s a funny old world, n’est-ce pas?     

[Spider]

@paulhanley

i may have missed it, but can you highlight the parts in that article that explain the benefits we are now experiencing because of Brexit?

Whilst it covers a lot of very old and well-trodden ground about “feelings” on our relationship with Europe, I am yet to be given solid tangible evidence of a single Brexit benefit that I voted for.

I’m sure you can sort that for me 😁

Edited September 12, 2021 by Spider

[Sweep]

It'll be interesting to see if our when any other country decides to leave the EU. I suppose they'll wait and see how we fair.

[Spider]

1 minute ago, Sweep said:

It'll be interesting to see if our when any other country decides to leave the EU. I suppose they'll wait and see how we fair.

I’m excited to be told about all the benefits I’ve been blind to by Paul H.

A visionary.

[Traf]

I was hoping to read something in a larger font size.

[Not in Crawley]

8 minutes ago, Traf said:

I was hoping to read something in a larger font size.

That tickled me.

[paulhanley]

19 minutes ago, Spider said:

I’m excited to be told about all the benefits I’ve been blind to by Paul H.

A visionary.

Yes and there are a couple of questions I'd like to address to you. 

1. How do you account for Michael Barnier suddenly wanting some of the benefits of Brexit for France ? You're even in disagreement with him now it seems!!!

2. How come we aren't all on the breadline as predicted by George Osborne before the 2016 referendum and by a multiplicity of remainers in the intervening period? Weren't we all supposed to be two steps away from living in caves now? Project Fear was an absolute load of horse-shit from start to finish, and now we know for sure because here we are. 

The economic upsides and/or downsides of Brexit will of course be a fluid picture and a continued debate. Certainly nobody could have predicted that a pandemic would muddy the waters hugely. It's quite tough to make absolute judgements with any great clarity just now because COVID has obliterated the metrics. But we are certainly far, far from the bottom of the pit as remainers predicted.

What we do know is that we have trade deals with the vast majority of nations we had under the EU, we have brand new ones with Australia and Japan, we have one with Canada that's about to be improved, there's a deal with New Zealand due to be signed very soon and we are in negotiations to join the Comprehensive Trans Pacific Partnership which would bring huge economic benefits. There's also a new commercial and investment relationship with India.

Apart from having control of our own borders for the first time in generations we also have control of our own regulations and we're about to replace the suffocating and over-bearing GDPR nonsense that was imposed by Brussels.

It should also be remembered that we surged ahead with our vaccinations owing to being able to act with alacrity as regards the purchasing of vaccines. The result was that we were gradually able to open our economy more quickly. When the Government of any country is able to respond nimbly to circumstances rather than being hitched to a bureaucratic juggernaut then there will be positive results. 

It is of note that diehard remainers are currently seeking to blame logistics/supply chain issues on Brexit. They conveniently overlook that these problems exist throughout the world (including within the EU) largely due to the pandemic. 

I hardly need add that the tax we pay in our salaries each month now all goes to our own Government. If we dislike that Government we can boot them out. You can't boot out an EU commissioner.

I appreciate that any word uttered on this subject is going to be met with a wall of entrenched disapproval from diehard remainers who are busy clutching at any and every straw to show Brexit isn't working. You'll be talking about the NI protocol and fishing - and they are clearly two difficult areas. But on the whole Project Fear was bollocks - and the people who promulgated it were liars.

Right, I am off for some roast beef and Yorkshire pudding and still in the glow of a 5-2 away win. I'm sure Mr Barnier is enjoying his Sunday knowing that he stands more of a chance of the Elysee now he's distanced himself from the Brussels tentacles. 

[Spider]

Why have taxes risen if we get to keep them all?

If anything, the government could have reduced them since we aren’t sending billions over the channel every year?

Yes, we responded well during the pandemic. ✔️
 

No, driver shortages were not inevitable. My company has lost EU workers and have been unable to replace them directly because of Brexit. In addition, our exports have all but disappeared for the same reason. To me, that is and has been an absolute nightmare.

I understand your points regarding the moral position of the courts etc - I voted leave for mainly that reason, but also because the leave campaign assured me the country would have lots and lots more money, easier trade and secure borders. None of those things have come to pass.

So yes, pandemic response goes in favour of Brexit. But quite honestly, that wasn’t ever an expectation. The key items on the list remain undelivered Paul.

[leigh white]

1 hour ago, Spider said:

Why have taxes risen if we get to keep them all?

If anything, the government could have reduced them since we aren’t sending billions over the channel every year?

Yes, we responded well during the pandemic. ✔️
 

No, driver shortages were not inevitable. My company has lost EU workers and have been unable to replace them directly because of Brexit. In addition, our exports have all but disappeared for the same reason. To me, that is and has been an absolute nightmare.

I understand your points regarding the moral position of the courts etc - I voted leave for mainly that reason, but also because the leave campaign assured me the country would have lots and lots more money, easier trade and secure borders. None of those things have come to pass.

So yes, pandemic response goes in favour of Brexit. But quite honestly, that wasn’t ever an expectation. The key items on the list remain undelivered Paul.

I think you might have been lied to by an unscrupulous set of bullshiitters, I fell for a scam once when abroad trying to find which pea was in a cup.

[BobyBrno]

1 hour ago, Spider said:

Why have taxes risen if we get to keep them all?

If anything, the government could have reduced them since we aren’t sending billions over the channel every year?

Yes, we responded well during the pandemic. ✔️
 

No, driver shortages were not inevitable. My company has lost EU workers and have been unable to replace them directly because of Brexit. In addition, our exports have all but disappeared for the same reason. To me, that is and has been an absolute nightmare.

I understand your points regarding the moral position of the courts etc - I voted leave for mainly that reason, but also because the leave campaign assured me the country would have lots and lots more money, easier trade and secure borders. None of those things have come to pass.

So yes, pandemic response goes in favour of Brexit. But quite honestly, that wasn’t ever an expectation. The key items on the list remain undelivered Paul.

I voted remain because of my experience of trading within the European Union and my business in the Czech Republic. I understand why others thought different to me and voted accordingly. I’ve never fallen out with anyone who voted different to me. It’s democracy. 
Voting on the most important issue in our lifetime because some politician ‘assured’ you is something you, me and many others will live to regret.

Its time to move on though. It’s happened. 

[Spider]

18 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

I voted remain because of my experience of trading within the European Union and my business in the Czech Republic. I understand why others thought different to me and voted accordingly. I’ve never fallen out with anyone who voted different to me. It’s democracy. 
Voting on the most important issue in our lifetime because some politician ‘assured’ you is something you, me and many others will live to regret.

Its time to move on though. It’s happened. 

I’ve moved on. Paul enjoys being patronising and accusing folk of not being patriots like some cackling yeehaw.

however, I won’t be convinced that it’s working. And I’m yet to see any evidence that it is. I’ve certainly not been shown any.

Apart from some vaccine deliveries.

[Dimron]

I was undecided which way to vote but in the end chose Remain simply because I was approaching retirement and I didn't want an economic shock to the system just when I would probably need some support from it.

I see what we are going through at the moment is an economic adjustment and it will probably take quite a long time. If I was twenty years younger I'd have most likely jumped the other way and voted Leave.

In addition I have always seen superior health systems in the major European economies and I didn't trust a Tory Government free of European legislation to look after our NHS... just as I was getting older and probably more in need.

I don't think any of us thought about the Good Friday Agreement, that really was the Elephant in the Room and would have really made the entire project a non-starter if properly considered.

[Not in Crawley]

My favourite thing about the politics thread is when someone thinks they've made the killer points, everything else isn't simply now beneath them and signs off with a, 'right I'm off for a....glass of amazing red bought on my holiday in the Italian Lakes/steak thats been aged on a virgin's thighs/a three course tasting menu made with the finest ingredients known to man....' its not exclusive to any side of the political coin, its just amusing.

I like to think that, as with most people, the phone gets put down, TV for a bit, cup of tea, maybe a shit and then check if anyone has had the gall to try and respond.

Right, I'm off for an ice cold chardonnay filtered through Zooey Daschenel's gusset.

 

 

 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

Re. the benefits of Brexit - I'd argue the improvement to the pay and conditions of workers in certain, often low-income, industries as a result of the loss of unrestricted access to the European labour force would be one benefit.

I'm unconvinced the Conservative Party won't at some stage kowtow to business and re-open the labour market again - it's certainly an outcome I'd be holding out for if I were a captain of industry/business leader - but it's been encouraging to witness so far.

[Spider]

At least Paul H makes an effort to provide evidence of the benefits. He’s struggled to, but he’s giving it a shot.

The visionaries are notable by their contributions.

I will concede that the Brexit meant we got our vaccines nice and fast.

The empty shelves that are appearing up and down the country are a long way from the sunlit uplands I was promised though.

Bountiful, ambrosia-laden shopping trolleys seem a way off yet.

[Traf]

12 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

Right, I'm off for an ice cold chardonnay filtered through Zooey Daschenel's gusset.

Not brasso through a tramp's sock?

What an elitist snob you are.