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Give it a fucking rest eh  ‘somebody’s moral expectations of someone are very different to the legal obligations you know that and I know that. So why don’t you lay off patronising folk Chris and

I really cannot wait for the day we don’t have to read the words moonshift, Inner fucking circle, blue bastard marble or any piece of shit word associated to this horrible draining 3 year bullshit sag

Fucking massive clear out coming on WW later, either way.

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10 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

I suppose it is time that I clarified the position we find ourselves in. As previously discussed, we retain the right to purchase the debt relating to the ICI-Moonshift transaction. This debt is now in default and ICI have now served their 14 day notice period for recalling the collateral. This means that we can, if we so choose, take control of Burnden Leisure and subsequently BWFC. 

The issue's that we face are as follows: 

Whilst quite prepared to pay off the £28.9M debt, and in fact any other legitimate debts, we are not prepared to cover the additional £26.6M loss that we will incur by writing off the inter company obligation owed by ICI whilst also paying off the associated factoring companies.. When the opportunity was initially pitched to us it was initimated that a deal would involve the partial-total repayment of this, this however is not now the case. Whilst we could choose to liquidate ICI, it is unlikely that we will be able to recover any funds. We also have the very real prospect that any of the factoring companies could jump on to the WU petition if we satisfied all other creditors.

Of the £28.9M, we had anticipated being able recover some of the investment through re-development of the car parks, the building of a secondary hotel on the Hotel car park and selling the rights to an access road for the new Bolton West road system. This combined with a payment against the £13.3M would have gotten us to a point of comfort in respect of losses over the next 3 years.  

So where are we now? We are talking to two of the previously interested parties (Not Bassini) about recalling the shares, funding administration and then loaning them funds to purchase the business from administration. We are discussing us being able to convert this loan to equity at a fixed point in the future. The issue with this is of course the transfer embargo combined with the loss of ups to 14 senior players, leaving a threadbare squad and a fairly bleak campaign.  

As each day goes by and more & more bills are missed, the debt increases and it becomes much less appetising for a potential buyer, for example they are now £1.7M higher than when FV first started to look at the club and with a future payment already taken (EFL). 

Ultimately administration is going to be the only option to shed the debt, it is still going to require £22-£25M but that is probably acceptable to a consortium looking for a slow re-build, this is typically a fans-backed consortium or involving local people. We ourselves wouldn't be looking for a slow re-build. 

I appreciate that this isn't what you wish to hear, but when overall debts turn out to be nearly double the previously stated, it dopes change the attractiveness of an investment. I am aware of course that the usual crowd will attempt to pick this apart (BWFCFan5, Troy Swoosh (Hi Mark Banner), Jules Darby etc)) but c'est la vie.

 

Holy Fuck

But Thanks Howard

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Just now, chrisw99 said:

Can the transfer embargo be appealed against after a regime change, as that should be a punishment against the former owners?

It can be appealed, doesn't mean you'll get anywhere though.

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So a 12 point deduction for next season and a transfer embargo on top of it. 

Sounds wonderful. 

One thing I have always wondered about us is how much potential do we have as a club? I mean we have a nice stadium but its not exactly massive and we cant even fill that. 

I'd imagine if we could become a really successful club we could pull in more. The amount of people I see around Horwich alone who wear Man United/Liverpool/City/Chelsea tops etc is insane and I doubt many of them have season tickets or have even attended more than 10 games in their lives. 

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Haha Mark Banner! Name on my Twitter is Dave Banner as I used to get told I went into hulk smash mode when I got angry

You're welcome to find out with a straightener outside the club shop of course 

 

Toodle pip

 

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1 hour ago, ProfessorWoland said:

Ah sorry, didn't think to check before I posted. Still tend to believe she isn't embarking on an outright deception of the court.

I agree with you.

There was similar speculation three years ago over the mysteriously missing £2.5m. Its only through Howard's info that its been possible to figure out what lay behind it.

Summat needs to happen very soon though. Eddie, just before he died, basically gave Ken another six months to sell his shares and he hasn't succeeded. Eddie spent years and he didn't succeed either. Some folk seem to think that selling a serial loss-maker is easy-peasy. Never tried it myself and would never have fancied it either.

P.S. Posted before seeing Howard's bombshell.

Edited by Chris Custodiet
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Just now, dazl1212 said:

So a 12 point deduction for next season and a transfer embargo on top of it. 

Sounds wonderful. 

One thing I have always wondered about us is how much potential do we have as a club? I mean we have a nice stadium but its not exactly massive and we cant even fill that. 

I'd imagine if we could become a really successful club we could pull in more. The amount of people I see around Horwich alone who wear Man United/Liverpool/City/Chelsea tops etc is insane and I doubt many of them have season tickets or have even attended more than 10 games in their lives. 

I would imagine we will probably ground sharing in the future if everything goes pop, too expensive to run with 4 - 5000 crowds. 

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1 minute ago, darrener said:

I would imagine we will probably ground sharing in the future if everything goes pop, too expensive to run with 4 - 5000 crowds. 

I thought that last night if I am being honest. Hopefully, the worst case scenario is administration, with owners who can afford to run it and put out a half decent team in league one. 

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16 minutes ago, chrisw99 said:

Is it interest on debt that is killing us, because if that is cleared....

Someone said the wage bill was 250k a month = £3 million

Lets be optimistic and say 11,000 season tickets at £400 average = 4.4 million

3000 extra tickets sold each match at average £25 = £75000 * 23 matches = £1,725,000

So - just looking at wages vs bums on seats we should be £3 million in profit.   

Then you add on TV money, advertising, sponsorship...

It *should* make a profit.   Or am I wildly off here.

 

I'd be surprised if we generate even £2.5M from ST sales, never mind £4.4M

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22 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

I suppose it is time that I clarified the position we find ourselves in. As previously discussed, we retain the right to purchase the debt relating to the ICI-Moonshift transaction. This debt is now in default and ICI have now served their 14 day notice period for recalling the collateral. This means that we can, if we so choose, take control of Burnden Leisure and subsequently BWFC. 

The issue's that we face are as follows: 

Whilst quite prepared to pay off the £28.9M debt, and in fact any other legitimate debts, we are not prepared to cover the additional £26.6M loss that we will incur by writing off the inter company obligation owed by ICI whilst also paying off the associated factoring companies.. When the opportunity was initially pitched to us it was initimated that a deal would involve the partial-total repayment of this, this however is not now the case. Whilst we could choose to liquidate ICI, it is unlikely that we will be able to recover any funds. We also have the very real prospect that any of the factoring companies could jump on to the WU petition if we satisfied all other creditors.

Of the £28.9M, we had anticipated being able recover some of the investment through re-development of the car parks, the building of a secondary hotel on the Hotel car park and selling the rights to an access road for the new Bolton West road system. This combined with a payment against the £13.3M would have gotten us to a point of comfort in respect of losses over the next 3 years.  

So where are we now? We are talking to two of the previously interested parties (Not Bassini) about recalling the shares, funding administration and then loaning them funds to purchase the business from administration. We are discussing us being able to convert this loan to equity at a fixed point in the future. The issue with this is of course the transfer embargo combined with the loss of ups to 14 senior players, leaving a threadbare squad and a fairly bleak campaign.  

As each day goes by and more & more bills are missed, the debt increases and it becomes much less appetising for a potential buyer, for example they are now £1.7M higher than when FV first started to look at the club and with a future payment already taken (EFL). 

Ultimately administration is going to be the only option to shed the debt, it is still going to require £22-£25M but that is probably acceptable to a consortium looking for a slow re-build, this is typically a fans-backed consortium or involving local people. We ourselves wouldn't be looking for a slow re-build. 

I appreciate that this isn't what you wish to hear, but when overall debts turn out to be nearly double the previously stated, it dopes change the attractiveness of an investment. I am aware of course that the usual crowd will attempt to pick this apart (BWFCFan5, Troy Swoosh (Hi Mark Banner), Jules Darby etc)) but c'est la vie.

 

Would a partnership between your people and local consortium be workable? 

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18 minutes ago, chrisw99 said:

Can the transfer embargo be appealed against after a regime change, as that should be a punishment against the former owners?

Administration brings with it a transfer embargo anyway. If we enter administration you face the very real prospect of someone having to pay a lot of money for an (in effect) league two club. 

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28 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

I suppose it is time that I clarified the position we find ourselves in. As previously discussed, we retain the right to purchase the debt relating to the ICI-Moonshift transaction. This debt is now in default and ICI have now served their 14 day notice period for recalling the collateral. This means that we can, if we so choose, take control of Burnden Leisure and subsequently BWFC. 

The issue's that we face are as follows: 

Whilst quite prepared to pay off the £28.9M debt, and in fact any other legitimate debts, we are not prepared to cover the additional £26.6M loss that we will incur by writing off the inter company obligation owed by ICI whilst also paying off the associated factoring companies.. When the opportunity was initially pitched to us it was initimated that a deal would involve the partial-total repayment of this, this however is not now the case. Whilst we could choose to liquidate ICI, it is unlikely that we will be able to recover any funds. We also have the very real prospect that any of the factoring companies could jump on to the WU petition if we satisfied all other creditors.

Of the £28.9M, we had anticipated being able recover some of the investment through re-development of the car parks, the building of a secondary hotel on the Hotel car park and selling the rights to an access road for the new Bolton West road system. This combined with a payment against the £13.3M would have gotten us to a point of comfort in respect of losses over the next 3 years.  

So where are we now? We are talking to two of the previously interested parties (Not Bassini) about recalling the shares, funding administration and then loaning them funds to purchase the business from administration. We are discussing us being able to convert this loan to equity at a fixed point in the future. The issue with this is of course the transfer embargo combined with the loss of ups to 14 senior players, leaving a threadbare squad and a fairly bleak campaign.  

As each day goes by and more & more bills are missed, the debt increases and it becomes much less appetising for a potential buyer, for example they are now £1.7M higher than when FV first started to look at the club and with a future payment already taken (EFL). 

Ultimately administration is going to be the only option to shed the debt, it is still going to require £22-£25M but that is probably acceptable to a consortium looking for a slow re-build, this is typically a fans-backed consortium or involving local people. We ourselves wouldn't be looking for a slow re-build. 

I appreciate that this isn't what you wish to hear, but when overall debts turn out to be nearly double the previously stated, it dopes change the attractiveness of an investment. I am aware of course that the usual crowd will attempt to pick this apart (BWFCFan5, Troy Swoosh (Hi Mark Banner), Jules Darby etc)) but c'est la vie.

 

Thanks for this Howard. So were fucked then? Its unlikely anyone will want to fund admin based on what you have said.

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21 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

I suppose it is time that I clarified the position we find ourselves in. As previously discussed, we retain the right to purchase the debt relating to the ICI-Moonshift transaction. This debt is now in default and ICI have now served their 14 day notice period for recalling the collateral. This means that we can, if we so choose, take control of Burnden Leisure and subsequently BWFC. 

The issue's that we face are as follows: 

Whilst quite prepared to pay off the £28.9M debt, and in fact any other legitimate debts, we are not prepared to cover the additional £26.6M loss that we will incur by writing off the inter company obligation owed by ICI whilst also paying off the associated factoring companies.. When the opportunity was initially pitched to us it was initimated that a deal would involve the partial-total repayment of this, this however is not now the case. Whilst we could choose to liquidate ICI, it is unlikely that we will be able to recover any funds. We also have the very real prospect that any of the factoring companies could jump on to the WU petition if we satisfied all other creditors.

Of the £28.9M, we had anticipated being able recover some of the investment through re-development of the car parks, the building of a secondary hotel on the Hotel car park and selling the rights to an access road for the new Bolton West road system. This combined with a payment against the £13.3M would have gotten us to a point of comfort in respect of losses over the next 3 years.  

So where are we now? We are talking to two of the previously interested parties (Not Bassini) about recalling the shares, funding administration and then loaning them funds to purchase the business from administration. We are discussing us being able to convert this loan to equity at a fixed point in the future. The issue with this is of course the transfer embargo combined with the loss of ups to 14 senior players, leaving a threadbare squad and a fairly bleak campaign.  

As each day goes by and more & more bills are missed, the debt increases and it becomes much less appetising for a potential buyer, for example they are now £1.7M higher than when FV first started to look at the club and with a future payment already taken (EFL). 

Ultimately administration is going to be the only option to shed the debt, it is still going to require £22-£25M but that is probably acceptable to a consortium looking for a slow re-build, this is typically a fans-backed consortium or involving local people. We ourselves wouldn't be looking for a slow re-build. 

I appreciate that this isn't what you wish to hear, but when overall debts turn out to be nearly double the previously stated, it dopes change the attractiveness of an investment. I am aware of course that the usual crowd will attempt to pick this apart (BWFCFan5, Troy Swoosh (Hi Mark Banner), Jules Darby etc)) but c'est la vie.

 

Thanks Howard. The £28.9m is fairly straightforward but can you say if you know how the additional £26.6m has arisen?

This is colossal and not remotely near the £8-10m  factored cash shifted to ICIL out of BWFC that we've referred to previously. This should have been self-cancelling. i.e the cash to pay the factoring company was supposedly in the ICIL account. Has it gone?

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1 minute ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Thanks Howard. The £28.9m is fairly straightforward but can you say if you know how the additional £26.6m has arisen?

This is colossal and not remotely near the £8-10m  factored cash shifted to ICIL out of BWFC that we've referred to previously. This should have been self-cancelling. i.e the cash to pay the factoring company was supposedly in the ICIL account. Has it gone?

Cheers. That was what I was trying to get my head round. If we made a slight profit in last accounts where has such a massive increase come from. 

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4 minutes ago, Ani said:

Cheers. That was what I was trying to get my head round. If we made a slight profit in last accounts where has such a massive increase come from. 

This just isn't making sense at the moment but Howard's lot did seem to be the best hope we had.

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How on earth has it been allowed to get like this - what were the auditors thinking of signing off the accounts unless all this debt has incurred over the last 18 months or so?

Right now, i'd take admin, -12 points next season and even a crap team which gets relegated to league 2 as long as there is a slow plan in place to re-build from the bottom upwards.

Anderson has right royally fucked us over. Lets hope he's not walking this earth too much longer

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Fuck it all.

So our only hope is for The Bahrainis to fund admin and sell to FV or Gaspard who do some slow reubuilding for a while.

What an absolute mess. 

Edited by Mantra
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2 minutes ago, Biggish Dave said:

How on earth has it been allowed to get like this - what were the auditors thinking of signing off the accounts unless all this debt has incurred over the last 18 months or so?

Right now, i'd take admin, -12 points next season and even a crap team which gets relegated to league 2 as long as there is a slow plan in place to re-build from the bottom upwards.

Anderson has right royally fucked us over. Lets hope he's not walking this earth too much longer

Looking more like a Portsmouth this 

another shite season next with relegation 

 

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15 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Administration brings with it a transfer embargo anyway. If we enter administration you face the very real prospect of someone having to pay a lot of money for an (in effect) league two club. 

 

Just now, Mantra said:

Fuck it all.

So our only hope is for The Bahrainis to fund admin and sell to FV or Gaspard who do some slow reubuilding for a while.

What am absolute mess. 

Think it might get even messier - Doesn't Administration also mean that in the first instance the Supporters Trust have to be given an option to buy or participate in a purchase ?

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53 minutes ago, chrisw99 said:

Is it interest on debt that is killing us, because if that is cleared....

Someone said the wage bill was 250k a month = £3 million

Lets be optimistic and say 11,000 season tickets at £400 average = 4.4 million

3000 extra tickets sold each match at average £25 = £75000 * 23 matches = £1,725,000

So - just looking at wages vs bums on seats we should be £3 million in profit.   

Then you add on TV money, advertising, sponsorship...

It *should* make a profit.   Or am I wildly off here.

 

I put those figures up.  The £250,000 a month was the monthly cash injection needed at Bury.  Our wage bill is circa £800k a month for players, + whatever the other staff cost (don't know how much that is), our requirements are clearly much higher than £250,000 a month.

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