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2 minutes ago, Damocles said:

That’s what De Vere was.

Aye 

But it wasn’t a cash cow was it? Otherwise why did they pull out 

The fact is, adding £1m+ in rent each year to our overheads won’t do us any favours as we can’t operate with the current costs (apparently). If our turnover in league 1 is £8m and we need to spend 10% - 20% of that renting the ground back, we are even more fucked 

It’s a case of kicking the can down the road another year or two. But every time we kick it we are a little bit less attractive to potential owners who may want to spunk some money on the football side 

A sad state of affairs but it’s where we are 

 

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Give it a fucking rest eh  ‘somebody’s moral expectations of someone are very different to the legal obligations you know that and I know that. So why don’t you lay off patronising folk Chris and

I really cannot wait for the day we don’t have to read the words moonshift, Inner fucking circle, blue bastard marble or any piece of shit word associated to this horrible draining 3 year bullshit sag

Fucking massive clear out coming on WW later, either way.

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17 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The admin was appointed by the Eddie Davies Trust. Ken appointed Quantuma for the hotel. 
This has been so well established and explained in the media and on here - so many times. I find it impossible to believe you don't know this, given this is very central to the issues being experienced now. 

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3 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Aye 

But it wasn’t a cash cow was it? Otherwise why did they pull out 

The fact is, adding £1m+ in rent each year to our overheads won’t do us any favours as we can’t operate with the current costs (apparently). If our turnover in league 1 is £8m and we need to spend 10% - 20% of that renting the ground back, we are even more fucked 

It’s a case of kicking the can down the road another year or two. But every time we kick it we are a little bit less attractive to potential owners who may want to spunk some money on the football side 

A sad state of affairs but it’s where we are 

 

Given there are supposedly hotel chains wanting to buy it - it isn't too far fetched that FV would be keen to outsource its operation to a chain for a fee that would offset the football losses to some extent and also take the risk out of running the hotel. 

That wouldn't involve sale of property. I don't think selling the ground is necessarily a good idea - but it does depend who you sell it to and on what terms. 

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Think this is going to end badly for everyone

 

Supporters,staff Everyone else can fuck off  

 

Liquidate keep your fucking hotel and stadium.

Build your offices and shops but I for one will never set foot on middle took again ,and I won't be alone .

Don't mind watching Bwfc in a stadium in Bolton town centre even if it's in the west Lancaster LGE

 

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4 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

Think this is going to end badly for everyone

 

Supporters,staff Everyone else can fuck off  

 

Liquidate keep your fucking hotel and stadium.

Build your offices and shops but I for one will never set foot on middle took again ,and I won't be alone .

Don't mind watching Bwfc in a stadium in Bolton town centre even if it's in the west Lancaster LGE

 

Bye then

To borrow a commonly used proverb, if they played in the streets, I'd support from the pavements. Whether it be Middlebrook or Premier 5s, I'll be there regardless. 

Yes I'm as tired of all this shite as you are but weekends without football sounds bland as fuck to me

Edited by matty2094
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29 minutes ago, pauldeva said:

Anybody know when the TV money comes in?

I can't see how we can't run a skeleton team and staff if we have TV money, gate receipts, £350k from Connell, sell Oztumer, Matthews and any one else.

For fucks sake, Chester who we should have played, run a club on 2/5ths of fuck all.

I hate to say this but pretty sure that money will be withheld. Because of our situation. 

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20 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

From what I can see, turnover £8.3m, cost of sales + admin costs £6.9m which would allow for £1.5m in wages 

Clearly turnover would be lower, but then again you’ve got to question why it costs us £6.9m just to open the doors when other clubs in League 1 can operate at a much lower cost 

I appreciate that our facilities are more extensive and as such costs will be higher but we are meant to be benefiting from the ability to hold conferences, events etc - the stadium should go someway to Washing it’s own face otherwise why bother doing anything other than just holding football matches 

 

You don't seem to have allowed for any finance costs attaching to the £25m FV are supposed to be coming up with or even the loans that are already on the books. There might be scope for cutting out more costs but costs tend to rise over a three year period and I rather doubt that the club is capable of pulling in anywhere near as much in 2019/20 as it did in 2016/17 when it  was pushing for promotion with 10,000 season ticket sales and an average matchday attendance of 15,000.

There will be no more Holdsworth/Anderson costs but I'd guess that these will be uncomfortably exceeded by administrators fees.

I couldn't help noticing a Nottingham MP at PMQ's yesterday bemoaning the fate of NottsCounty whilst Jeremy Corbyn complained about the government spending less on enriching still further the owner of Forest Green Rovers. He didn't mention Dale Vince by name still less how Mr Vince manages to extract so much money out of Ecotricity and pay so little tax on it.

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Done some digging and apparently, league one TV money is about £1.5 million.

I've seen in Chesters accounts that they paid staff wages of about £750,000 in 2018.

With gate money surely we can fund a League 2 team.

6 minutes ago, Ani said:

I hate to say this but pretty sure that money will be withheld. Because of our situation. 

 

Edited by pauldeva
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7 hours ago, Sluffy said:

What is the standard procedure for a club in our position then?

The closest example I can thank is Rangers and in their case the club was liquidated a new phoenix club formed and they were gifted a place three divisions lower than they were in (and I say gifted because any other club bar Celtic and maybe Hibs and Hearts would have been kicked even further down the league tiers).

If FV don't come through then that's it - we are liquidated.  Even the players won't be guaranteed their money because football creditors and payment minimums of 25p in the £ won't apply, everything is sold up, secured creditors paid first and everyone else gets what ever is left - if there is anything left - at so many pennies in the £.  (I'm not sure if HMRC becomes a preferential creditor if we are no longer bound by EFL regulations any more?).

The ST can then start up a phoenix club and we can play our games on Queens Park in the Bolton and District Sunday League, Division 4.

It really is as stark as that if FV pull out.

For those of you who think I might be being a bit over the top about this, the following is taken from the Administrators reply to the players, who clearly haven't grasped the seriousness of the situation as to why they haven't been paid -

I am working within a budget to keep this club alive until a sale is completed.

He's simply saying if I pay you there's no money left to keep the club going but if I don't we just might survive if FV can just pull a rabbit out of the hat.

Best keep our fingers crossed that they do find a way I suggest.

 

 

Well for one, the other clubs in our position were able to fulfill fixtures despite being in administration. And fwiw I think it's been established that precedent would say we'd be very unlikely to be banished to some jumpers for goalposts level upon liquidation, although with the season being so close I'd say all bets are off.

But all that is by the by. The point I was making is that there have been massive red flags about the viability of FV's takeover for months, and far from it being a case of drama queens or 'it's not like buying a packet of crisps', those concerns seem to be valid.

I also don't know how we can be in a position where the takeover is/was imminent, but the preferred bidders business plan is based on owning the hotel and getting a PFA loan or the players to accept being fobbed off again, none of which look likely.

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Can't believe some folk saying they wouldn't go if we sold the ground and rented it back or if Fawaz bought the hotel etc etc.

Just admit you can't be arsed going any more. Stop looking for excuses - it happens. I'd rather be there with 3000 hardcore than a bunch of moaning bastards. I just hope there's a club for the 3000 of us to support. I'm sure there will be in some form or another - maybe even a league 2 team in 12 months time but I've been to the 4th before and will again if needs be.

FWIW, I think many of these "you'll never see me again" are spouting hot air out of frustration. I feel their pain, we're all sick to the back teeth of it

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47 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The admin was appointed by the Eddie Davies Trust. Ken appointed Quantuma for the hotel. 
This has been so well established and explained in the media and on here - so many times. I find it impossible to believe you don't know this, given this is very central to the issues being experienced now. 

Wasn’t sure if ED Trust or KA appointed, but thought it was Ken. So I stand corrected. 

Edited by Mounts Kipper
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18 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Wasn’t sure if ED Trust or KA appointed, but thought it was Ken. So I stand corrected. 

If Ken had appointed the admin we'd have Quantuma handling both.....

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This may have already been answered but i can't find the answer to it. I know players are creditors and once the takeover has been completed they will be paid in full. What about the club staff e.g office and store staff are they creditors? Will they be paid in full once the takeover has completed?

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2 minutes ago, Pricey said:

This may have already been answered but i can't find the answer to it. I know players are creditors and once the takeover has been completed they will be paid in full. What about the club staff e.g office and store staff are they creditors? Will they be paid in full once the takeover has completed?

I think the majority of their pay is up to date anyway, but....by law they wouldn't be due full back pay - they'd be unsecured creditors (if they haven't had it) but in reality be hard for a new business owner not to pay them in full. 

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2 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I think the majority of their pay is up to date anyway, but....by law they wouldn't be due full back pay - they'd be unsecured creditors (if they haven't had it) but in reality be hard for a new business owner not to pay them in full. 

Cheers

The reason I ask is because surely from the nonrefundable 1 million that FV gave to help with the running costs of the club surely it would have been a good idea to pay some of the monies the players are owed so we could have avoided another frenzy. Don't get me wrong I am not saying for 1 second the club staff don't/didn't deserved to be paid because they do, but to pay 6 players a bit of money or even offer to cover their monthly bills until the takeover has completed, surely that would have been an ideal solution and then we could have avoided this PFA shit

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Think Andy Taylor and a PFA rep are going on talksport shortly.

Give that twat Jim White a break from talking about other crisis clubs like Arsenal, Newcastle and Manchester United.

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47 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

You don't seem to have allowed for any finance costs attaching to the £25m FV are supposed to be coming up with or even the loans that are already on the books. There might be scope for cutting out more costs but costs tend to rise over a three year period and I rather doubt that the club is capable of pulling in anywhere near as much in 2019/20 as it did in 2016/17 when it  was pushing for promotion with 10,000 season ticket sales and an average matchday attendance of 15,000.

There will be no more Holdsworth/Anderson costs but I'd guess that these will be uncomfortably exceeded by administrators fees.

I couldn't help noticing a Nottingham MP at PMQ's yesterday bemoaning the fate of NottsCounty whilst Jeremy Corbyn complained about the government spending less on enriching still further the owner of Forest Green Rovers. He didn't mention Dale Vince by name still less how Mr Vince manages to extract so much money out of Ecotricity and pay so little tax on it.

Your correct 

I was assuming that whoever bought us paid cash and the football business would try to operate within the revenue it generates 

If football ventures are in fact borrowing all / most of the money then using the clubs revenue to pay the interest on those loans then we won’t have moved on at all really will we? 

We will still be losing money every month with owners not putting any money in, difficult to see any business plan for the football side there  

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I know the players have come out and said things about wages now but that was only after the initial rumor of the PFA loan, doe's anyone else think there is someone leaking these things from the club?

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2 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

Aye 

But it wasn’t a cash cow was it? Otherwise why did they pull out 

The fact is, adding £1m+ in rent each year to our overheads won’t do us any favours as we can’t operate with the current costs (apparently). If our turnover in league 1 is £8m and we need to spend 10% - 20% of that renting the ground back, we are even more fucked 

It’s a case of kicking the can down the road another year or two. But every time we kick it we are a little bit less attractive to potential owners who may want to spunk some money on the football side 

A sad state of affairs but it’s where we are 

 

I think De Vere were sold to Malmaison who pulled out.

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44 minutes ago, Pricey said:

Cheers

The reason I ask is because surely from the nonrefundable 1 million that FV gave to help with the running costs of the club surely it would have been a good idea to pay some of the monies the players are owed so we could have avoided another frenzy. Don't get me wrong I am not saying for 1 second the club staff don't/didn't deserved to be paid because they do, but to pay 6 players a bit of money or even offer to cover their monthly bills until the takeover has completed, surely that would have been an ideal solution and then we could have avoided this PFA shit

This £1M relates to the monies put in by MJ prior to administration.

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4 minutes ago, Damocles said:

This £1M relates to the monies put in by MJ prior to administration.

i thought the £1m was put in when the preferred bidder was selected?

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19 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

Well for one, the other clubs in our position were able to fulfill fixtures despite being in administration. And fwiw I think it's been established that precedent would say we'd be very unlikely to be banished to some jumpers for goalposts level upon liquidation, although with the season being so close I'd say all bets are off.

But all that is by the by. The point I was making is that there have been massive red flags about the viability of FV's takeover for months, and far from it being a case of drama queens or 'it's not like buying a packet of crisps', those concerns seem to be valid.

I also don't know how we can be in a position where the takeover is/was imminent, but the preferred bidders business plan is based on owning the hotel and getting a PFA loan or the players to accept being fobbed off again, none of which look likely.

I don't think you are understanding the subtlety of clubs being able to play in Administration and clubs in Administration who are (to all intents and purpose) insolvent under Administration.

Forgive me if the following comes across as patronising, it is not intended to, I'm simply trying to explain what the score is.

Bolton Wanderers Football Club, the one that plays in the league, is managed currently by Parkinson, as about six striking first team players for the coming season, etc, etc are not themselves a legal entity, they are in simple terms a service that is provided by a company called Bolton Wanderers Football and Athletic Company Limited.

Football Ventures want to buy that service and not BWFAC

That's kind of different to what has happened throughout our history when people like Eddie and latterly Ken has bought the company and thereby owned the service.

The intent if you like is for someone like FV to buy the service (the club) from BWFAC Ltd.

As long as BWFAC keeps going there is always a possibility that might happen.

The bad news though is that the Administrator has been called into BWFAC and quickly seen that it is fucked - it is to emphasise what I've already said above, 'to all intents and purpose' insolvent - dead in the water.

The Administrator has quickly concluded that BWFAC can not be saved and must be liquidated.

If the football club is not bought from BWFAC before liquidation, then the 'service' if you will - the provision of an EFL endorsed football team is terminated.  It is no more, gone, bang, kaput. 

It's not a question of playing whilst in Administration anymore like other clubs have done - like you and plenty others reason we should be able to - it's simply that if it isn't sold on to another solvent company prior to BWFAC's liquidation it simply doesn't exist anymore.

 

Now as for Football Ventures.

Lets start off by understanding who an Administrator is first of all, he is the representative of the High Court appointed under the Insolvency Act 1986, he isn't here to wheel and deal, he isn't mates of Eddies or Ken, he's here to do what he can in law to get the best deal for the insolvent company's creditors.

In BWFAC case when he first came in he quickly made his mind up that the company was all but dead but if he could sell on the football club then that would involve selling all the assets of BWFAC too, such as the stadium, car parks, land etc and would be more beneficially financially in his expert opinion for the clubs creditors, than simply liquidating the company and selling off its assets there and then.

He found just enough money left in the club to market it and go through the evaluation of the bids process - but that meant not paying the players and various others (the training ground cabin people for instance) - tough love, as paying them would have triggered liquidation instead. 

Once the money ran out he asked for £1m non refundable loan to keep it going or otherwise he would have no other option but to liquidate before the football purchase could be completed

In the professional opinion of the courts representative, FV were the only viable purchaser at the right place at the time - irrespective of how you, me or anyone else may think of them.  They were/are the only deal now left.

If they pull out there's nowhere left to go as BWFAC would be completely insolvent, unable to trade and would trigger instant liquidation and BWFC (the football club we all know and love) going out of existence.

I think it would be possible for FV to give further money to the Administrator to keep BWFAC going until the deal comes to completion but it would seem firstly that someone would have to give it to them first, in order to pass it on to the Administrator (possibly some truth in the rumours that FV were looking for other investors recently?) but the biggest problem everyone faces is who can give the EFL the guarantee that the club (BWFC) are financially able to complete the season, because without such a guarantee they simply won't be allowed to start it (unless the EFL bends their rules again?).

BWFAC certainly can't give that guarantee, they are terminal and will die once the Administrator runs out of money.

FV can't, they don't own the club.

The Administrator can't, they aren't in the business of running football clubs.

No one else can as there simply isn't time or money for the Administrator to go through another marketing of the club and evaluating bids.

The only show in town is FV, whether we like them or not.

 

As for me saying we'd play on Queens Park, that was just me trying to put some sort of perspective on our situation.  If there is no deal with FV there is no club.  So whoever starts one up, is starting one up from scratch - no money, no pitch, no players, no footballs, no history, no honours - nothing.

Up to them what they can raise/achieve and up to the EFL where they will slot them in the football pyramid

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1 hour ago, Pricey said:

Cheers

The reason I ask is because surely from the nonrefundable 1 million that FV gave to help with the running costs of the club surely it would have been a good idea to pay some of the monies the players are owed so we could have avoided another frenzy. Don't get me wrong I am not saying for 1 second the club staff don't/didn't deserved to be paid because they do, but to pay 6 players a bit of money or even offer to cover their monthly bills until the takeover has completed, surely that would have been an ideal solution and then we could have avoided this PFA shit

as admin said, they have been paying bills in order of need

insurances, re opening the training ground other bits of shit with the intention of getting a team on the pitch at wycombe

the business is in dire fcuking straits and if it survives it needs the goodwill of its employees

i do feel the pain of the players but striking is not helping

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Sluffy, the administrator is not a representative of the court. He is appointed by the entity who has the charge over the companies assets, the high court only check that his appointment is valid under the charge.

And the administrator can trade the company. What he can't do is run up losses otherwise he could be made personally liable for the debts.

Hence my question earlier about when the TV money comes in.

 

Edited by pauldeva
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1 minute ago, pauldeva said:

Sluffy, the administrator is not a representative of the court. He is appointed by the entity who has the charge over the companies assets, the high court only check that his appointment is valid under the charge.

Thank you.

I was trying to simplify the situation as best I could for others to understand.

What I've said still holds true as to what and why the situation is as it is.

Or do you disagree?

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