bwfcfan5 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ProfessorWoland said: Does anyone know the nature of these ongoing hidden cash drains (possibly a stupid question as they wouldn't be hidden otherwise)... I've been slowly coming round to administration, painful as that would be, but with the prospect of a new start without a massive debt burden. So, a grim few years ahead and possibly a second relegation, but in the medium term grounds for optimism. Now Bonnar seems to suggest there's a vast hole beneath the stadium sucking all the revenue away. Anyone got any ideas wtf he's on about? Administration is not a fix anymore unless someone is prepared to pay considerable money to fix you. Admin used to be the "wipe debts clean and start again". It is no longer as simple as that given the EFL requirement for certain percentages of amounts owing to be paid and the new ownership rules. Someone has to pay the admin costs, plus a % of debts plus show sustainable funding. That's a big whack of money. Less than buying it without admin but not "nothing". And the 12 point penalty and transfer embargo means someone buys a league one club for still a lot of money likely without the ability to do anything for at least another 2 seasons but prop up a league one club. That's how a business man looks at it. In my view all admin does is make the business accessible to those with less cash and therefore in a few years the cycle almost certainly repeats. Edited April 15, 2019 by bwfcfan5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, ProfessorWoland said: Does anyone know the nature of these ongoing hidden cash drains (possibly a stupid question as they wouldn't be hidden otherwise)... I've been slowly coming round to administration, painful as that would be, but with the prospect of a new start without a massive debt burden. So, a grim few years ahead and possibly a second relegation, but in the medium term grounds for optimism. Now Bonnar seems to suggest there's a vast hole beneath the stadium sucking all the revenue away. Anyone got any ideas wtf he's on about? As I said earlier I think the cash drain bonnar is referring to is the money Anderson is moving to Inner circle from BWFC then lending it back to the club, there is no proof of that yet but we might know if it’s true when the next accounts are published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazl1212 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 If we go into administration or worse liquidation, what happens to the stadium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: As I said earlier I think the cash drain bonnar is referring to is the money Anderson is moving to Inner circle from BWFC then lending it back to the club, there is no proof of that yet but we might know if it’s true when the next accounts are published. Its not. We are losing money. And have been since our last few years in the premiership. We've lost money season on season. And still are. That's the cash drain. The hotel also loses money. If you're asking a business man to come in and turn it round, what would they do in a different type of business? Slash costs and try and turn round the business. What costs have we left to slash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Custodiet Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hoppy510 said: The final day for filing the 2017/18 accounts is end of June so we'll know a bit more when that happens although I had hoped that a takeover would ensure earlier publication (baselining the new ownership) Whilst the accounts don't tell the whole story they do give a pretty good picture of what has happened so it would be worthwhile having a look at the balance sheet which showed that the club was worth in excess of £45 million (i.e. the total assets were worth £45 million more than the total debts) when Anderson took over and comparing that to the newly published "value". May I respectfully refer you to the documents you will find here, which comprehensively contradict you: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00043026 And here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00335699 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLH Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said: Last time I looked there were 45 pages of information that was only 'true and fair' If any of it wasn't true or wasn't fair, tell us more. We can take it. I'm not saying it isn't true and fair. Given you obviously have no idea what the true and fair concept is, for you, all it means is that auditors are looking for any material misstatements and that the accounts give a fair view of financial performance. If, there have been loans between BL and ICI, they'll not flag that as anything as long as its reflected in the financial statements, and in some brief conversations they've had there minds put at rest that its all going to get paid back. Read the disclosure from Cowgill's covers them, in a post AA world you'll not see an auditor do more than that in there disclosure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Its not. We are losing money. And have been since our last few years in the premiership. We've lost money season on season. And still are. That's the cash drain. The hotel also loses money. If you're asking a business man to come in and turn it round, what would they do in a different type of business? Slash costs and try and turn round the business. What costs have we left to slash? https://www.burndenaces.co.uk/2018/03/22/bolton-wanderers-closing-on-first-profit-in-12-years.html But Ken said we were going to show a small profit. There is something else going on in my opinion over and above the normal losses you could expect. Edited April 15, 2019 by Mounts Kipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: But Ken said we were going to show a small profit. There is something else going on in my opinion over and above the normal losses you could expect. We show a small profit only because of the Madine 6M in the accounts. Its a one off. Sure we can make a profit if we sell £6M of players - but note the word "small". We're losing between £3 and 5M a year. And we've barely spent anything on the football side for 5 seasons now. And we're still losing millions a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okocha10 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) Why are people listen to a word of what Neil Bonnar says... Edited April 15, 2019 by Okocha10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger_Dubuis Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: ". We're losing between £3 and 5M a year. And we've barely spent anything on the football side for 5 seasons now. And we're still losing millions a year. But why though. its not like we pay big wages now.All our strikers ie Magennis and Donaldson will be on less money than Ken.For example Rotherham, Wigan, Preston and Millwall all get lower crowds than us but have better teams. Do these clubs have someone fundng £5 million per year losses to pay for their better players and management? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Custodiet Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 16 minutes ago, DLH said: I'm not saying it isn't true and fair. Given you obviously have no idea what the true and fair concept is, for you, all it means is that auditors are looking for any material misstatements and that the accounts give a fair view of financial performance. If, there have been loans between BL and ICI, they'll not flag that as anything as long as its reflected in the financial statements, and in some brief conversations they've had there minds put at rest that its all going to get paid back. Read the disclosure from Cowgill's covers them, in a post AA world you'll not see an auditor do more than that in there disclosure... Please don't try to teach Grandma to suck eggs. Judging by your comments, I expect I was signing off audit reports before you were born. When were you born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomski Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Chris Custodiet said: The Championship is one huge cash drain and BWFC is only an exception in that it has no parachute money and no Sugar Daddy. Keeping cash drains going is hard enough, getting someone to buy them is harder still. Sorry to be repetitive but anyone who wants to begin to understand should stop wasting their time following Twitter and start by reading the first few pages of the club's 2017 FULL ACCOUNTS that can be found here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00043026/filing-history Can’t compare us to the rest who have spent mega money and wages. Ours is unique hence us being the only team in the division struggling to finish the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irvtheswerv Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 FFS can't people have a look at the accounts. Our total income from gate receipts is about £3 million. Average wage in championship is £360,000. If we have 20 players that gives us a wage bill of £7.2 million. Our wage bill is actually about £9.5 million. We've lost a fortune before we've kicked a ball. And need income from other sources to break even. Problem is Burnden leisure has effectively collapsed and the whole group is loss making. Our wage bill is one of the smallest in the championship, possibly the smallest. Derby's is £44 million. Last time Wigan were promoted from league 1 their wage bill was £8.6 million. Bury's was £4.5 million when they were relegated from league 1 last season. All football clubs make a loss. Oxford United published their accounts last week. They lost £2,024,283 on a turnover of £5,589,591. The whole EFL is fucked. Every club loses money and needs a sugar daddy to fund it. Like every other club we can only continue if someone buys us to fund these losses. That' Ken says we have a buyer is the only reason we can get an adjournment on all these winding up petitions. But there's allegedly 13 clubs in the championship up for sale so anyone with the money is spoiled for choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiggyStardust Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Roger_Dubuis said: But why though. its not like we pay big wages now.All our strikers ie Magennis and Donaldson will be on less money than Ken.For example Rotherham, Wigan, Preston and Millwall all get lower crowds than us but have better teams. Do these clubs have someone fundng £5 million per year losses to pay for their better players and management? Yes. Last season : Preston £10m Wigan £7m Millwalls losses for the last 5 years they have reported on : £4.8m, £9.4m, £10.4m, £5.6m, £5.3m Rotherhams lost £1.5m the season they stayed up and we went down, they were relegated the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Steejay Posted April 15, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted April 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, ZiggyStardust said: Yes. Last season : Preston £10m - Funded by Trevor Hemmings, one of the richest guys in the UK Wigan £7m - Funded by Whelan, then their new owners Millwalls losses for the last 5 years they have reported on : £4.8m, £9.4m, £10.4m, £5.6m, £5.3m Rotherhams lost £1.5m the season they stayed up and we went down, they were relegated the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderlust Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 38 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said: May I respectfully refer you to the documents you will find here, which comprehensively contradict you: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00043026 And here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00335699 Thanks. It was £9.4 million when Anderson took over down to £4.7 million the following year. Not looking forward to seeing what it is now TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLH Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said: Please don't try to teach Grandma to suck eggs. Judging by your comments, I expect I was signing off audit reports before you were born. When were you born? Yet you don't know what the true and fair concept is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Custodiet Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hoppy510 said: Thanks. It was £9.4 million when Anderson took over down to £4.7 million the following year. Not looking forward to seeing what it is now TBH. No it wasn't. BWFC didn't have net assets when Anderson and Holdsworth took over. It had net liabilities of £186million at 30 June 2016 which by 30 June 2017 had turned into net assets of £7.3m as a result of Eddie's loan write offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irvtheswerv Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Mounts Kipper said: But it could go to the club and then be transferred to Inner circle who could then lend it back to BWFC, is that correct? No. You can't just transfer money like that. You can loan it, move it around between companies in the same group. To factor it you've got to get someone to buy that debt, so it would have to be secured against something, have some type of repayment vehicle. So possible, but not as easy as people on here are making it out to be. And loaning money out of a loss making business to loan it back via another business in which you're the sole director? - I'm an Economics bod knowledge of this is beyond my remit - any proper accountants on here want to comment on that process????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Custodiet Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 46 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: https://www.burndenaces.co.uk/2018/03/22/bolton-wanderers-closing-on-first-profit-in-12-years.html But Ken said we were going to show a small profit. There is something else going on in my opinion over and above the normal losses you could expect. I think you should go on an accafobia course, Mounts. Accafobia is a pathological fear of accounting and finance sometimes resulting in fantasy or excessive imagination. But it is usually treatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nantwichwhite Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said: I think you should go on an accafobia course, Mounts. Accafobia is a pathological fear of accounting and finance sometimes resulting in fantasy or excessive imagination. But it is usually treatable. The problem is that Ken has had form on this. Let us hope the lesson has been noted. If he has sailed close to the wind he would be probably having the best legal advice to not fall foul of the law. However examples like Valerie Patisserie do not give the general public absolute confidence in accountancy or auditing procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepingindian Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 (edited) off topic, is there a football manager thread on WW atm was thinking of doing one. Edited April 15, 2019 by sleepingindian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderlust Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Chris Custodiet said: No it wasn't. BWFC didn't have net assets when Anderson and Holdsworth took over. It had net liabilities of £186million at 30 June 2016 which by 30 June 2017 had turned into net assets of £7.3m as a result of Eddie's loan write offs. Sorry if we're talking at cross purposes - I'm looking at the Balance Sheet of Burnden Leisure. ..which is what Anderson bought and included BWFCA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 1 hour ago, irvtheswerv said: FFS can't people have a look at the accounts. Our total income from gate receipts is about £3 million. Average wage in championship is £360,000. If we have 20 players that gives us a wage bill of £7.2 million. Our wage bill is actually about £9.5 million. We've lost a fortune before we've kicked a ball. And need income from other sources to break even. Problem is Burnden leisure has effectively collapsed and the whole group is loss making. Our wage bill is one of the smallest in the championship, possibly the smallest. Derby's is £44 million. Last time Wigan were promoted from league 1 their wage bill was £8.6 million. Bury's was £4.5 million when they were relegated from league 1 last season. All football clubs make a loss. Oxford United published their accounts last week. They lost £2,024,283 on a turnover of £5,589,591. The whole EFL is fucked. Every club loses money and needs a sugar daddy to fund it. Like every other club we can only continue if someone buys us to fund these losses. That' Ken says we have a buyer is the only reason we can get an adjournment on all these winding up petitions. But there's allegedly 13 clubs in the championship up for sale so anyone with the money is spoiled for choice. Nail on head. Like has been said just take a look around ffs. Everyone else can cover the losses. We can’t. It really is that simple. Hidden drains? Fuckin ell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter desperado Posted April 15, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted April 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, sleepingindian said: off topic, is there a football manager thread on WW atm was thinking of doing one. The game or “The Phil Parkinson is fit to burn” topic? I’d shy away from either if I was you. Geeks on one, Moonmen on the other suggesting Mourhino is available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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