Take Over

[Super Bock]

40 minutes ago, Benny The Ball said:

Correct 

My understanding is that Emerson Group ( Middlebrook Retail Park Owners ) would like to build further shopping units ( One of which would be perfect for a flagship B&M Bargains store ) and the shopping centre becomes  effectively 4 sided  - but cannot do so as would build on their existing car parks leaving insufficient car parking  which obviously reduces footfall

Solution turn some of BWFC car parks into Multi Storey car parks with access straight into the retail park 

With improvements to road network - particularly Horwich Link road - good chance it will get approved by planners 

Therefore Football Club in powerful negotiating position owning valuable asset 

Travelodge also have a long standing requirement for a hotel at Middlebrook.

If they turned the hotel into a Travelodge on a 35 year term they could then sell this on at considerable value. 

[ProfessorWoland]

49 minutes ago, Benny The Ball said:

Correct 

My understanding is that Emerson Group ( Middlebrook Retail Park Owners ) would like to build further shopping units ( One of which would be perfect for a flagship B&M Bargains store ) and the shopping centre becomes  effectively 4 sided  - but cannot do so as would build on their existing car parks leaving insufficient car parking  which obviously reduces footfall

Solution turn some of BWFC car parks into Multi Storey car parks with access straight into the retail park 

With improvements to road network - particularly Horwich Link road - good chance it will get approved by planners 

Therefore Football Club in powerful negotiating position owning valuable asset 

Middlebrook always seems quite busy, but I'm surprised in the current climate there's such an appetite for retail expansion. How many of the current occupants are likely to be still trading in a decade?

[Wanderlust]

MJ and SB both have an interest in property development and the availability of land seems to have been our key selling point which raises the slight concern that the money will go into that rather than the football side of the business.

[Mounts Kipper]

46 minutes ago, ProfessorWoland said:

Middlebrook always seems quite busy, but I'm surprised in the current climate there's such an appetite for retail expansion. How many of the current occupants are likely to be still trading in a decade?

Last I heard was the middlebrook is one of the most successful retail parks in the U.K. so it’s no surprise to me that property speculators seem to have bought BWFC they’ll make more money by selling off parts of the car park or developing them for retail and leisure  than owning a football club, suppose a successful club would bring more folk in though.  It really could be de developed as the retail and leisure hub for Bolton and surrounding areas. 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[sleepingindian]

42 minutes ago, Hoppy510 said:

MJ and SB both have an interest in property development and the availability of land seems to have been our key selling point which raises the slight concern that the money will go into that rather than the football side of the business.

tbh drawing the crowds to the stadium will have a positive effect on the shops and surrounding areas. so probly will have to spend a bit to attract fans.

[Mounts Kipper]

2 minutes ago, sleepingindian said:

tbh drawing the crowds to the stadium will have a positive effect on the shops and surrounding areas. so probly will have to spend a bit to attract fans.

I agree a successful club would have a positive side for the rest of the middlebrook site and with further leisure and shopping facilities it could atttact shoppers who currently head for manchester or the Trafford centre, certainly the potential is there in the right hands. 

[Sluffy]

1 hour ago, Benny The Ball said:

Correct 

My understanding is that Emerson Group ( Middlebrook Retail Park Owners ) would like to build further shopping units ( One of which would be perfect for a flagship B&M Bargains store ) and the shopping centre becomes  effectively 4 sided  - but cannot do so as would build on their existing car parks leaving insufficient car parking  which obviously reduces footfall

Solution turn some of BWFC car parks into Multi Storey car parks with access straight into the retail park 

With improvements to road network - particularly Horwich Link road - good chance it will get approved by planners 

Therefore Football Club in powerful negotiating position owning valuable asset 

Very interesting and thank you for that Benny (and also thank you to Chris earlier about his knowledge on what happened with the accounts at Portsmouth following their exit from Administration).

It now starts to make sense as to why the money behind FV - which seems to be investment funds - would be interested in us?

If you put to one side for the moment that they need to show £25m for the club, then how much more would they need to design and build shopping units, flagship store and multi storey car parks, road links, etc?

Would investors get a return on their money from buying a third tier, financially constrained, and under a points deficit already, football club - I'd very much doubt it - but if their investment was more centred on retail development and land ownership, with a more realistic return on their investment - certainly more likely.

However the money required to buy the club and do all the building and development as well would run into tens of millions before they get any sort of return - so you would need an investment fund or the like to be able to finance and support such a thing to take place and develop over a number of years without the need to seek immediate returns (such as promotion to the Premier League within three years) to financially survive.

The question does have to be asked though whether development of retail centres are a good risk with the move to online shopping these days - but maybe the long term plan is use Middlebrook land as a logistic centre (good links to the motorway and train systems) for the likes of Amazon, or just turn it in to housing in years to come?

For the first time I can actually see and understand why anyone would want to buy us, it isn't primarily to make us strong again but to own and develop the land we have for the future and which takes millions to develop and years to see a return on the investment required - and such why investment companies are the money people behind the funding and not chancers/tyre kickers chasing the fantasy of a quick return to the Premier League and the insane wealth (and mammoth costs that also come with it).

[Wanderlust]

To some extent it brings back the ghost of what happened when we moved from Burnden and the delays in getting planning permission for the site that cost us a fortune in interest payments on the loan for the new stadium. Hopefully the new owners have already sounded them out about it.

[hughmungus]

There has always been a plan to build on car park B & C but the problem was objections from council about traffic etc, this is being remedied slightly with the plan to run a relief road to the old loco works which helped the Next build. It’s all in the air atm but Emerson’s and Orbit are doing all they can to push things on. 

[Gonk]

1 hour ago, Sluffy said:

Very interesting and thank you for that Benny (and also thank you to Chris earlier about his knowledge on what happened with the accounts at Portsmouth following their exit from Administration).

It now starts to make sense as to why the money behind FV - which seems to be investment funds - would be interested in us?

If you put to one side for the moment that they need to show £25m for the club, then how much more would they need to design and build shopping units, flagship store and multi storey car parks, road links, etc?

Would investors get a return on their money from buying a third tier, financially constrained, and under a points deficit already, football club - I'd very much doubt it - but if their investment was more centred on retail development and land ownership, with a more realistic return on their investment - certainly more likely.

However the money required to buy the club and do all the building and development as well would run into tens of millions before they get any sort of return - so you would need an investment fund or the like to be able to finance and support such a thing to take place and develop over a number of years without the need to seek immediate returns (such as promotion to the Premier League within three years) to financially survive.

The question does have to be asked though whether development of retail centres are a good risk with the move to online shopping these days - but maybe the long term plan is use Middlebrook land as a logistic centre (good links to the motorway and train systems) for the likes of Amazon, or just turn it in to housing in years to come?

For the first time I can actually see and understand why anyone would want to buy us, it isn't primarily to make us strong again but to own and develop the land we have for the future and which takes millions to develop and years to see a return on the investment required - and such why investment companies are the money people behind the funding and not chancers/tyre kickers chasing the fantasy of a quick return to the Premier League and the insane wealth (and mammoth costs that also come with it).

Amazon already have a huge logistics place at J4

[hughmungus]

1 hour ago, Sluffy said:

Very interesting and thank you for that Benny (and also thank you to Chris earlier about his knowledge on what happened with the accounts at Portsmouth following their exit from Administration).

It now starts to make sense as to why the money behind FV - which seems to be investment funds - would be interested in us?

If you put to one side for the moment that they need to show £25m for the club, then how much more would they need to design and build shopping units, flagship store and multi storey car parks, road links, etc?

Would investors get a return on their money from buying a third tier, financially constrained, and under a points deficit already, football club - I'd very much doubt it - but if their investment was more centred on retail development and land ownership, with a more realistic return on their investment - certainly more likely.

However the money required to buy the club and do all the building and development as well would run into tens of millions before they get any sort of return - so you would need an investment fund or the like to be able to finance and support such a thing to take place and develop over a number of years without the need to seek immediate returns (such as promotion to the Premier League within three years) to financially survive.

The question does have to be asked though whether development of retail centres are a good risk with the move to online shopping these days - but maybe the long term plan is use Middlebrook land as a logistic centre (good links to the motorway and train systems) for the likes of Amazon, or just turn it in to housing in years to come?

For the first time I can actually see and understand why anyone would want to buy us, it isn't primarily to make us strong again but to own and develop the land we have for the future and which takes millions to develop and years to see a return on the investment required - and such why investment companies are the money people behind the funding and not chancers/tyre kickers chasing the fantasy of a quick return to the Premier League and the insane wealth (and mammoth costs that also come with it).

It will always be a retail park, the infrastructure isn’t in place for it to be anything else.

[Sluffy]

17 minutes ago, Gonk said:

Amazon already have a huge logistics place at J4

Thanks I didn't know and was only really wondering about the possible future use once people physically going to the shops is no longer viable for businesses and they all move towards on-line shopping and home delivery.

@hughmungus you might well be right mate but I suspect in 50 years or so when I'm long gone there won't be a need for retail parks and the function of the Middlebrook will have radically changed.

[Mounts Kipper]

28 minutes ago, hughmungus said:

It will always be a retail park, the infrastructure isn’t in place for it to be anything else.

Part of any planning application would include road and transport link improvements, I expect in 10 years the retail and leisure footprint will be somewhat bigger than it is now. 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[hughmungus]

2 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Part of any planning application would include road and transport link improvements, I expect in 10 years the retail and leisure footprint will be somewhat bigger than it is now. 

Not sure, they are always going to be fighting the greenbelt restrictions which is why building on the existing car parks is so much easier and cost effective rather than wait years for planning decisions and possible appeals etc for disturbing the local newt colony.

[hughmungus]

6 minutes ago, Sluffy said:

Thanks I didn't know and was only really wondering about the possible future use once people physically going to the shops is no longer viable for businesses and they all move towards on-line shopping and home delivery.

@hughmungus you might well be right mate but I suspect in 50 years or so when I'm long gone there won't be a need for retail parks and the function of the Middlebrook will have radically changed.

There will always be a need for shopping centres, dont forget even the Middlebrook has gone through various highs and lows in its 22yr history with shop/food places opening and closing and opening again. It’s in the middle of an area which will have a big increase in housing over next 5yrs or so, giving it an instant increase in footfall.

[TrickyTrotter]

I walked from the hotel to Next the other day across the car parks.  They are huge (you don't appreciate it in the car) and you could build a row of shops on the ends opposite Next without giving up a huge number of spaces, and given it is likely to be at least 3 years before the UniBol has crowds of 28000 again, football parking is not the big issue.  The key is improved road access which the link road should provide plus arguably a more business friendly local council.  The GM Spatial Framework has large areas of the M61 corridor being developed as well.

The attraction of Middlebrook baffles me (it's cold and windy), but empty units go quickly. I guess most people want an easy drive and free parking rather than trailing into Bolton TC, hence the attraction of Middlebrook and the Trafford Centre (although look closely there and there must be  a dozen or so empty units).

Clearly there is money to be made, but whether BWFC/FV want to be a property developer or just a land seller remains to be seen.  Think the Reebok Masterplan had more offices and a hotel around the North Stand End didn't it?

[hughmungus]

3 minutes ago, TrickyTrotter said:

I walked from the hotel to Next the other day across the car parks.  They are huge (you don't appreciate it in the car) and you could build a row of shops on the ends opposite Next without giving up a huge number of spaces, and given it is likely to be at least 3 years before the UniBol has crowds of 28000 again, football parking is not the big issue.  The key is improved road access which the link road should provide plus arguably a more business friendly local council.  The GM Spatial Framework has large areas of the M61 corridor being developed as well.

The attraction of Middlebrook baffles me (it's cold and windy), but empty units go quickly. I guess most people want an easy drive and free parking rather than trailing into Bolton TC, hence the attraction of Middlebrook and the Trafford Centre (although look closely there and there must be  a dozen or so empty units).

Clearly there is money to be made, but whether BWFC/FV want to be a property developer or just a land seller remains to be seen.  Think the Reebok Masterplan had more offices and a hotel around the North Stand End didn't it?

They will just hand it over to Orbit and Emerson who are the leaders in this type of development and then make money from rent etc.

[sleepingindian]

from a few years back before eddie davies sold us 100m masterplan

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/11262119.bolton-wanderers-100-million-middlebrook-masterplan-is-approved/

[hughmungus]

Just now, sleepingindian said:

from a few years back before eddie davies sold us 100m masterplan

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/11262119.bolton-wanderers-100-million-middlebrook-masterplan-is-approved/

That was always doomed to fail as it would have given very little return, Gartside was hoping for grants rather than profit to prop up the BWFC business but the interest was never there.

[frank_spencer]

Once upon a time I'm pretty sure there was a plan to put exits straight on the the m61 coming off the roundabout where the cop shop is now. Reducing the traffic heading on to de Havilland way. 

That would give 3 ways out of the complex if you include the link through the loco works to crown Lane. These were supposed to be in when the stadium was built 20+ years ago. 

[Sluffy]

2 minutes ago, hughmungus said:

There will always be a need for shopping centres, dont forget even the Middlebrook has gone through various highs and lows in its 22yr history with shop/food places opening and closing and opening again. It’s in the middle of an area which will have a big increase in housing over next 5yrs or so, giving it an instant increase in footfall.

You might well be right but I just think there is a change in society's behaviour that will lead to somethings we know and love now becoming obsolete over time.

Who would have imagined the mass closure of pubs and the dramatic reduction in cigarette smoking over the last 15/20 years, the need for everyone to have smart phones (and the consequential decline in wrist watches and camera sales), the way we moved away from sitting down as a family to watch TV to everyone streaming it on line and on demand, for instance?

We already have Philip Green and his Acadia empire teetering on the edge and desperately looking to do deals to cut rents on his shops from landlords to survive - with the dilemma of the landlords being if they cut the rents for him - all the other retailers will be looking for reductions too.

My daughter asked me to go to Asda the other day, not for any shopping but because it now apparently acts as a centre to which you can return home delivery goods back to?  She didn't think of shopping as Asda's prime function for her but rather it being a returns collection point.

Town centres are already dying, it's just a matter of time imo when retail parks face a bleak future also.

I'm sure JV if it is their plan to develop Middlebrook would be aware of all this and have costed it all in and found the sums favourable but would also have taken account of land usage say 30 years down the line if or when retail parks may become no longer what society wants anymore.

[Razaldo9]

Be interesting to see how we're being funded. Whatever level that is. 

Iles said Basran is still involved and there are no backers, it's an equity fund. I can't see using the existing capital in his company to invest in a football club going down well with the investors. 

Nixon was reporting Basran was no longer part of the FV team in April/ May, so wonder if he backtracks and claims they must have come back together. 

[FrancisFogarty]

7 hours ago, Chris Custodiet said:

I've lost count of the number of times I've explained this but Tom Morris owns 80% of PBP that bought car parks off the club and lent £5.5m on the security of the hotel. These were commercial transactions  but transactions that were unlikely to have taken place if Michael James was not the owner of the other 20% PBP shares and was not keen on seeing the club fold.

Will MJ, I wonder,  be the next target for the ST and assorted simpletons?

Were you letting out a big long sigh when you were typing that ?

[Chris Custodiet]

4 hours ago, Sluffy said:

Very interesting and thank you for that Benny (and also thank you to Chris earlier about his knowledge on what happened with the accounts at Portsmouth following their exit from Administration).

It now starts to make sense as to why the money behind FV - which seems to be investment funds - would be interested in us?

If you put to one side for the moment that they need to show £25m for the club, then how much more would they need to design and build shopping units, flagship store and multi storey car parks, road links, etc?

Would investors get a return on their money from buying a third tier, financially constrained, and under a points deficit already, football club - I'd very much doubt it - but if their investment was more centred on retail development and land ownership, with a more realistic return on their investment - certainly more likely.

However the money required to buy the club and do all the building and development as well would run into tens of millions before they get any sort of return - so you would need an investment fund or the like to be able to finance and support such a thing to take place and develop over a number of years without the need to seek immediate returns (such as promotion to the Premier League within three years) to financially survive.

The question does have to be asked though whether development of retail centres are a good risk with the move to online shopping these days - but maybe the long term plan is use Middlebrook land as a logistic centre (good links to the motorway and train systems) for the likes of Amazon, or just turn it in to housing in years to come?

For the first time I can actually see and understand why anyone would want to buy us, it isn't primarily to make us strong again but to own and develop the land we have for the future and which takes millions to develop and years to see a return on the investment required - and such why investment companies are the money people behind the funding and not chancers/tyre kickers chasing the fantasy of a quick return to the Premier League and the insane wealth (and mammoth costs that also come with it).

Do I take it that you remain just a little sceptical about the administrators blandishments that 'the preferred bidder has both the financial ability and the determination to turn around the fortunes of this great football club' ?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, hughmungus said:

Not sure, they are always going to be fighting the greenbelt restrictions which is why building on the existing car parks is so much easier and cost effective rather than wait years for planning decisions and possible appeals etc for disturbing the local newt colony.

And rightly so: newts are ace!