Take Over

[birch-chorley]

4 hours ago, Carlos said:

 

Erm no. As stated many times. There are proper legit clubs all the way down the pyramid. You don't simply get parachuted in. Colls are 8th tier, top of. Teams at level 9 are competing for promotion, proper budgets. There's no space at level 10 any more which is where FC United popped up. Level 11 which is West Lancs League. Even then, Chew Moor Brook have more right to that spot as top of level 12 table. Maybe level 13 with Horwich St Mary's.

It's arrogant to expect any kind of special treatment over and above well run clubs.

Don’t be daft 

Surely we would be going in at Confrence North, the very worst case 

One of these tin pot, jumpers for goalposts clubs would just have to step aside 

[RUREADY2ROLL]

12 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Don’t be daft 

Surely we would be going in at Confrence North, the very worst case 

One of these tin pot, jumpers for goalposts clubs would just have to step aside 

surely with the gap we would create a team would benefit in each division

So if they pushed us in the National League then there would be a slot in League 1 for a league 2 team to move up and a place in League 2 for a National League team to move up

Edited March 15, 2019 by RUREADY2ROLL

[Leyther_Matt]

20 minutes ago, RUREADY2ROLL said:

surely with the gap we would create a team would benefit in each division

So if they pushed us in the National League then there would be a slot in League 1 for a league 2 team to move up and a place in League 2 for a National League team to move up

See my previous post. My prediction would be Conference North, although it would have to be an immediate continuation of the club post-liquidation based on previous examples, although quite how they quantify that, I don’t know, other than at least pointing out that the ‘new’ Telford and Nuneaton clubs have secured deals to stay at the same ground. 

[leigh white]

19 minutes ago, RUREADY2ROLL said:

surely with the gap we would create a team would benefit in each division

So if they pushed us in the National League then there would be a slot in League 1 for a league 2 team to move up and a place in League 2 for a National League team to move up

We could just slot into the Northern Prem League what North Ferriby got kicked out of today.

[Guest]

A few days ago, some folks were made Directors of summat 

 

how does that square with the deal collapsing?

[Howardroark]

5 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

A few days ago, some folks were made Directors of summat 

 

how does that square with the deal collapsing?

One appointment was to set aside a £5.5M loan, this reducing the upfront costs, however failure to get other creditors to agree meant it was too expensive and made them likely to fail the Fit and Proper tests.

[wakey]

3 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

and made them likely to fail the Fit and Proper tests.

there are actual tests??

thought it was basically ok as long as you're not a currently incarcerated serial killer?

 

[Howardroark]

Another note regarding administration and why it can’t happen: 

The point of administration is to get the best return for the creditors, this frequently involves continuing to trade the business whilst a buyer can be found (this buyer must meet the minimum EFL requirements , in this case £20M or so). 

The issue is who funds the business through the administration, this is typically the petitioner of the WU as would’ve been the case for Blumarble, however HMRC aren’t going to fund the on-going costs of the administration (£1.5M per month) just to reclaim £1.2M at sale (if a sale ever occurs). 

The only option is liquidation and ceasing trading.

[Howardroark]

1 minute ago, wakey said:

there are actual tests??

thought it was basically ok as long as you're not a currently incarcerated serial killer?

 

Yes, proof of funding for acquisition and meeting running costs for a certain period of time.

[Mounts Kipper]

1 minute ago, Howardroark said:

Another note regarding administration and why it can’t happen: 

The point of administration is to get the best return for the creditors, this frequently involves continuing to trade the business whilst a buyer can be found (this buyer must meet the minimum EFL requirements , in this case £20M or so). 

The issue is who funds the business through the administration, this is typically the petitioner of the WU as would’ve been the case for Blumarble, however HMRC aren’t going to fund the on-going costs of the administration (£1.5M per month) just to reclaim £1.2M at sale (if a sale ever occurs). 

The only option is liquidation and ceasing trading.

What’s your best guess as to how this will end? 

[wakey]

1 minute ago, Howardroark said:

Yes, proof of funding for acquisition and meeting running costs for a certain period of time.

how did Ken and Deano get away with it?

Reported at the time Deano was stumping up "£5m" (via Blumarble) and Ken £2.5m. How the chuff did they pull that one off when neither had a bean?

[birch-chorley]

20 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

See my previous post. My prediction would be Conference North, although it would have to be an immediate continuation of the club post-liquidation based on previous examples, although quite how they quantify that, I don’t know, other than at least pointing out that the ‘new’ Telford and Nuneaton clubs have secured deals to stay at the same ground. 

Do all our results this season get expunged? 

Every cloud 

[Howardroark]

5 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

What’s your best guess as to how this will end? 

On Tuesday a notification of the purchase of the Moonshift debt in respect of Inner Circle by consortium A

A formal bid for the company which delays HMRC winder

Formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan. 

On pay day- Ken accepts bid and signs over. 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Howardroark
F

[Howardroark]

2 minutes ago, wakey said:

how did Ken and Deano get away with it?

Reported at the time Deano was stumping up "£5m" (via Blumarble) and Ken £2.5m. How the chuff did they pull that one off when neither had a bean?

Deano did have the £5M which was enough to get through 6 months of obligations.

Ken god knows how, probably a form of leveraged buy out.

[Leyther_Matt]

Just now, birch-chorley said:

Do all our results this season get expunged? 

Every cloud 

If we went bust before the end of the season then that would be the case. However, any NewCo at that point then wouldn’t be treated as a continuation of the old club as the season wouldn’t have been completed, the FA registration would be surrendered and it would then be the Carlos scenario of AFC Wandering Bolton applying for the West Lancs League.  

[mickbrown]

I've just found out I played at level 13 of the pyramid when I was a kid.

Quite chuffed with that.

[leigh white]

4 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

I've just found out I played at level 13 of the pyramid when I was a kid.

Quite chuffed with that.

I knew a mate what came on as a sub for Appleby Frodingham in an FA cup tie in the earliest round. He never played again.

[Sluffy]

1 hour ago, Howardroark said:

On Tuesday a notification of the purchase of the Moonshift debt in respect of Inner Circle by consortium A

A formal bid for the company which delays HMRC winder

Formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan. 

On pay day- Ken accepts bid and signs over. 

 

One thing I don't quite understand, is I thought you said a change in ownership can't be made whilst a Winder is outstanding.

Wouldn't redeeming the shares amount to a change of ownership, whilst the HMRC Winder is left unpaid?

If so I understood you to say only KA (Inner Circle Investments) can pay off the winder?

If so doesn't that mean he still has a certain amount of leverage left still?

If I've understood correctly how is this dealt with?

Pay him off perhaps?

What happens if he doesn't play ball?  Isn't he a secured creditor for £5 million?  If so would he get his money even if the club was liquidated?

Also whilst this 14 day notice is being served, won't the club be insolvent - how can it trade?

The March wages would fall due within that time frame - how will they be paid whilst KA (ICI) is still the owner - at least on paper?

Can KA perhaps voluntarily agree to forego ownership within the 14 day notice period perhaps rather than trade whilst insolvent - and risk personal liability?

Thanks.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Sluffy
Added another question.

[Sluffy]

What we've learned today.

Depends on what you believe on the internet but let us start with what we think we know -

Basran Consortium calls off deal
BBC Radio Manchester Sports reports that Forest Green owner Vince commences court action against us.
HMRC winder due on Wednesday - amount outstanding £1.2 million.
No change of ownership whilst Winder on going.
Only payment of Winder can be made by  owners of the club which still in the hands of KA (Inner Circle Investments) even though he has defaulted on Eddie Davies personal loan to him for which he put up as collateral the ownership shares.
Whatever happens KA owes Eddie Davies/Moonshine circa £8 million.
There appears to be something like £16m of secured creditors that are owed money from the club (James, Warburton, KA(?), the bank, others?) and something like £13 million of unsecured (HMRC, police, Business Rates, Heathcote, etc).
The EFL through its 'golden share' in all clubs in the league will not permit Administration taking place without the means ALL secured creditors being paid in full and all unsecured creditors paid a minimum of 25% - so whoever wants Administration needs to have something like £20 million, plus £1.5 million per month to finance the club during Admin.  KA hasn't got anything like that.  
Basran was trying to but the club by funding the money KA needs to clear off the lien on the shares (about £8 million) and come to deals with all the other creditors - seems they couldn't find enough to afford that (at least at this stage of the saga), even with James (and probably Warburton) not pushing for their secured debts.
If nothing changes at the £1.2m HMRC Winder isn't paid on Wednesday - it's liquidation.

However it needn't end that way - and almost certainly won't.

It is more likely that someone will buy the debt owed by KA to Eddie from Moonshift (probably for much less than the £8 million outstanding.  This will mean KA will still need to find £8 million to pay the new owner of his debt (as that amount won't change).  This will probably be done on the day before or even the morning of, the Winder.
A formal bid for the company will then be announced and thus delay the Winder.
Finally a formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan.
I do have one or two loose ends I can't quite tie up about this but no doubt things will be made clearer in due course - see my previous post above.

I think that is how I've understood correctly most of what I've read.

Onwards and upwards still.

[Tombwfc]

2 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

Don’t be daft 

Surely we would be going in at Confrence North, the very worst case 

One of these tin pot, jumpers for goalposts clubs would just have to step aside 

 

For all our flaws, we're a founder member of the Football League and would be by a million miles the biggest English club to go to the wall in recent memory.

It'd be a massive story and a damning indictment of the EFL. They'd want to slide us back in at a decent-ish level sharpish.

No way we'd be pissing around with pub teams and the like.

[Spider]

Based on the more sage opinions there are, I’d say there’s only a 5% chance we’ll liquidate.

there are clearly interested parties who have managed to keep their dealings private (who is making the Twitter heroes really upset).

add into this that a football club that on its day can attract almost 30,000 supporters and I just cannot see a fix not being found.

youre not telling me a club suddenly playing in the northern leagues will be allowed to do so if thousands of fans are likely to show up. Think about it.

it won’t be pleasant, but we’re not going under. Just down.

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Spider

[bwfc2003]

One thing that puzzles me is people saying the winding up petition can only be paid by the owners of the club

 

Is this something specific to football and /or HMRC ?? as I have been in this position myself and the petitioning creditor didn't give a flying fuck who paid him, as long as he got paid

[Benny The Ball]

On 11/03/2019 at 20:22, stevieb said:

The questions I'm left with after reading this all day is who is Ayn Rand and HBAHT? 

 

On 11/03/2019 at 09:17, Howardroark said:

Howard Roark is a central character of Ayn Rand’s book ‘The Fountainhead’. 

 

On 11/03/2019 at 20:05, Howardroark said:

John Galt is a character in another book by Ayn Rand

 

13 hours ago, Dr Faustus said:

have this romantic idealism that a phoenix will rise from the ashes, be made up of local lads in pristine white shirts, play dazzling football and bask in glorious sun...

 

 

On 04/03/2019 at 11:28, Dr Faustus said:

I didn't choose to support BWFC- they chose me; a kid from LH on day out with his mates. I underwent a life changing experience bounding across the Burnden pitch, which catapulted me onto an unparalleled rollercoaster .

 

7 hours ago, leigh white said:

I knew a mate what came on as a sub for Appleby Frodingham in an FA cup tie in the earliest round. He never played again.

 

This thread is getting weirder by the day - its turning  into a real life version of one of my favourite films "Field Of Dreams "

Does anyone know if Doctor Faustus has got the landscape gardeners around at his place at the moment ?  

 

 

[Howardroark]

7 hours ago, Sluffy said:

One thing I don't quite understand, is I thought you said a change in ownership can't be made whilst a Winder is outstanding.

Wouldn't redeeming the shares amount to a change of ownership, whilst the HMRC Winder is left unpaid?

If so I understood you to say only KA (Inner Circle Investments) can pay off the winder?

If so doesn't that mean he still has a certain amount of leverage left still?

If I've understood correctly how is this dealt with?

Pay him off perhaps?

What happens if he doesn't play ball?  Isn't he a secured creditor for £5 million?  If so would he get his money even if the club was liquidated?

Also whilst this 14 day notice is being served, won't the club be insolvent - how can it trade?

The March wages would fall due within that time frame - how will they be paid whilst KA (ICI) is still the owner - at least on paper?

Can KA perhaps voluntarily agree to forego ownership within the 14 day notice period perhaps rather than trade whilst insolvent - and risk personal liability?

Thanks.

Essentially a takeover bid would be enough to delay the winder. 

The notice period for reclaiming KA shares is 14 days but he can surrender them at any point, the 14 days is a period for him to raise the funds to pay the debt in full and retain the shares,  this would also remove the debt owed to him by the club. 

During the 14 day period I would expect the bidder to go through the EFL tests. 

In terms of paying the winder, to settle it between now and the court date it has to come from KA, that’s not to say he couldn’t be loaned funds from the bidder to pay it but the reality is that any formal bid will be enough to postpone the court hearing. 

I believe the club are now trading under a ‘validation order’ which allows them to carry out some trade but prevents them from disposing of assets under market value or transfer the shares. 

 

[Howardroark]

15 minutes ago, bwfc2003 said:

One thing that puzzles me is people saying the winding up petition can only be paid by the owners of the club

 

Is this something specific to football and /or HMRC ?? as I have been in this position myself and the petitioning creditor didn't give a flying fuck who paid him, as long as he got paid

I think this is a translation issue, the funds can be provided by anybody, but under a WU the shares cannot be transferred which means a benefactor would have to loan the club the funds to pay it. 

Thst being said, it could be made up of donations where there is no requirement for a return. 

The crucial point in all of this is that simply paying HMRC doesn’t fix anything, there are many other creditors who will simply take over the WU proceedings using a process called ‘substitution’. Therefore the only solution is a deal that addresses all creditors who the club are in default to on their obligations.