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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

Take Over


Kane57

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1 hour ago, Spider said:

Based on the more sage opinions there are, I’d say there’s only a 5% chance we’ll liquidate.

there are clearly interested parties who have managed to keep their dealings private (who is making the Twitter heroes really upset).

add into this that a football club that on its day can attract almost 30,000 supporters and I just cannot see a fix not being found.

youre not telling me a club suddenly playing in the northern leagues will be allowed to do so if thousands of fans are likely to show up. Think about it.

it won’t be pleasant, but we’re not going under. Just down.

 

I agree.  There will be a few clubs at all levels arguing we should be allowed to go to the wall, but others wary that they will be next.

I think at 5k minimum would turn for a Phoenix from the Ashes Wanderers. At least at the beginning.  This would present major safety and security issues at any club below the Conference.

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9 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

Essentially a takeover bid would be enough to delay the winder. 

The notice period for reclaiming KA shares is 14 days but he can surrender them at any point, the 14 days is a period for him to raise the funds to pay the debt in full and retain the shares,  this would also remove the debt owed to him by the club. 

During the 14 day period I would expect the bidder to go through the EFL tests. 

In terms of paying the winder, to settle it between now and the court date it has to come from KA, that’s not to say he couldn’t be loaned funds from the bidder to pay it but the reality is that any formal bid will be enough to postpone the court hearing. 

I believe the club are now trading under a ‘validation order’ which allows them to carry out some trade but prevents them from disposing of assets under market value or transfer the shares. 

 

Who is most likely to have applied for a validation order?  HMRC or one of the other creditors who suspects the kitchen sink is about to be sold?

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2 minutes ago, TrickyTrotter said:

Who is most likely to have applied for a validation order?  HMRC or one of the other creditors who suspects the kitchen sink is about to be sold?

No, the club will have applied for it, it allows them to receive funds and make specific payments out (wages), effectively to trade whilst insolvent (you are classed as insolvent when a WU petition has been lodged and remains unsettled).

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Just one point to make, it’s not a defence of KA, but he legally cannot dispose of the assets for anything other than market value, this is a condition of any Winding Up petition. 

Therefore any bid by Basran would have to reflect the value of any assets owned by the club. 

I’ve long made the point that the only way to buy the club is through Moonshift and effectively force Ken out, I have no idea why Basran didn’t do this other than a presumption that he didn’t have the cash or that he didn’t have the on-going cash to satisfy Moonshift that the club would be in good hands.

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4 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

No, the club will have applied for it, it allows them to receive funds and make specific payments out (wages), effectively to trade whilst insolvent (you are classed as insolvent when a WU petition has been lodged and remains unsettled).

Ok thanks very helpful.  

So where do uncollected direct debits fit into this?  Why haven’t the club collected these funds yet to pay off some of its debts?

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1 minute ago, TrickyTrotter said:

Ok thanks very helpful.  

So where do uncollected direct debits fit into this?  Why haven’t the club collected these funds yet to pay off some of its debts?

Normally when a WU petition is made public knowledge, a bank will freeze accounts, hence the requirement for a validation order. 

The validation order probably came after the direct debit date mandates so didn’t cover them. It may also be that KA is asking to be paid that amount himself.

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1 hour ago, Spider said:

Based on the more sage opinions there are, I’d say there’s only a 5% chance we’ll liquidate.

there are clearly interested parties who have managed to keep their dealings private (who is making the Twitter heroes really upset).

add into this that a football club that on its day can attract almost 30,000 supporters and I just cannot see a fix not being found.

youre not telling me a club suddenly playing in the northern leagues will be allowed to do so if thousands of fans are likely to show up. Think about it.

it won’t be pleasant, but we’re not going under. Just down.

 

Exactly my thoughts. 3k Bolton turning up at Salford City would make things interesting to the locals and plod. 

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8 hours ago, Sluffy said:

What we've learned today.

Depends on what you believe on the internet but let us start with what we think we know -

Basran Consortium calls off deal
BBC Radio Manchester Sports reports that Forest Green owner Vince commences court action against us.
HMRC winder due on Wednesday - amount outstanding £1.2 million.
No change of ownership whilst Winder on going.
Only payment of Winder can be made by  owners of the club which still in the hands of KA (Inner Circle Investments) even though he has defaulted on Eddie Davies personal loan to him for which he put up as collateral the ownership shares.
Whatever happens KA owes Eddie Davies/Moonshine circa £8 million.
There appears to be something like £16m of secured creditors that are owed money from the club (James, Warburton, KA(?), the bank, others?) and something like £13 million of unsecured (HMRC, police, Business Rates, Heathcote, etc).
The EFL through its 'golden share' in all clubs in the league will not permit Administration taking place without the means ALL secured creditors being paid in full and all unsecured creditors paid a minimum of 25% - so whoever wants Administration needs to have something like £20 million, plus £1.5 million per month to finance the club during Admin.  KA hasn't got anything like that.  
Basran was trying to but the club by funding the money KA needs to clear off the lien on the shares (about £8 million) and come to deals with all the other creditors - seems they couldn't find enough to afford that (at least at this stage of the saga), even with James (and probably Warburton) not pushing for their secured debts.
If nothing changes at the £1.2m HMRC Winder isn't paid on Wednesday - it's liquidation.

However it needn't end that way - and almost certainly won't.

It is more likely that someone will buy the debt owed by KA to Eddie from Moonshift (probably for much less than the £8 million outstanding.  This will mean KA will still need to find £8 million to pay the new owner of his debt (as that amount won't change).  This will probably be done on the day before or even the morning of, the Winder.
A formal bid for the company will then be announced and thus delay the Winder.
Finally a formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan.
I do have one or two loose ends I can't quite tie up about this but no doubt things will be made clearer in due course - see my previous post above.

I think that is how I've understood correctly most of what I've read.

Onwards and upwards still.

I have an accumulation of questions but lets just stick to one for now, Sluffy. Where is the evidence that the £5m Moonshift advance has become £8m and thereby become a bigger creditor than PBP's £5.5m? You may have noticed that, whenever possible, I aim to be accurate.

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2 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

I have an accumulation of questions but lets just stick to one for now, Sluffy. Where is the evidence that the £5m Moonshift advance has become £8m and thereby become a bigger creditor than PBP's £5.5m? You may have noticed that, whenever possible, I aim to be accurate.

On this point, I believe the discrepancy arises from the following: 

The actual debenture amount is the £5M as recorded at companies house. 

The amount owed by KA to Moonshift/Trustees is closer to £8M due to loans made prior to the £5M that were designated to be anonymous. I believe that these are secured personally against KA.

 

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1 minute ago, Howardroark said:

On this point, I believe the discrepancy arises from the following: 

The actual debenture amount is the £5M as recorded at companies house. 

The amount owed by KA to Moonshift/Trustees is closer to £8M due to loans made prior to the £5M that were designated to be anonymous. I believe that these are secured personally against KA.

 

Is this a leak? If not, where is the evidence? When were these additional loans  allegedly made and why were they not repaid out of the Madine proceeds?

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3 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Is this a leak? If not, where is the evidence? When were these additional loans  allegedly made and why were they not repaid out of the Madine proceeds?

Nothing to leak, known within the club, post- blu marble & that would suggest Ken personally profited from Madine; the loan was to him, not the club.

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1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Ken maxed out one credit card then applied for another, and maybe another....

Not too far from the truth, in essence.

Question is does he really want stack his cards?

Big gamble on his part... 

He is at risk of financially ruining himself and folk continue to give him stick.

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6 minutes ago, HomerJay said:

Not too far from the truth, in essence.

Question is does he really want stack his cards?

Big gamble on his part... 

He is at risk of financially ruining himself and folk continue to give him stick.

If he wasn't able to keep the wolf from the door (for whatever reason) then for me he should have admitted it long ago, and gone down the administration route.

We know how unpalatable that would have been, but now it's come to this.

Instead, on the face of it, he's ballooned his way along a downward spiral, continually knocking on Ed's door for help.

Not sure what will be revealed in the months and years to come, hopefully it will just be a lack of competence at running a football club and nothing more sinister.

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25 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

Nothing to leak, known within the club, post- blu marble & that would suggest Ken personally profited from Madine; the loan was to him, not the club.

What you seem to be suggesting is that it was known within the club that Eddie was making personal loans to Ken, AND that the amounts of those loans were also known and have been well and truly leaked.

There is no reference to any such loans in the 2017 accounts. So when were they made, before or after the sale of Madine. What happened next? Any more leaks?

Edited by Chris Custodiet
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Just now, Chris Custodiet said:

What you seem to be suggesting is that it was known within the club that Eddie was making personal loans to Ken, but that the amounts of those loans were also known and have been well and truly leaked.

There is no reference to any such loans in the 2017 accounts. So when were they made, before or after the sale of Madine. What happened next? Any more leaks?

Why would they be in the accounts? Hypothetically the club raises an invoice to ICI which Ken pays, then ICI raises one to BWFC/BLL for repayment, maybe he’s an unsecured creditor as well.....

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8 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

Why would they be in the accounts? Hypothetically the club raises an invoice to ICI which Ken pays, then ICI raises one to BWFC/BLL for repayment, maybe he’s an unsecured creditor as well.....

You are being evasive, Howard. If Eddie lent money to Ken its highly unlikely that it was for any other purpose than to assist the club. If Ken spent that money for club purposes it would have to be disclosed in the accounts unless it occurred in a later period.

 

Edited by Chris Custodiet
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1 minute ago, Chris Custodiet said:

You are being evasive, Howard. If Eddie lent money to Ken its highly unlikely that it was for any other purpose than to assist the club. If Ken spent that money for club purposes it would have to be disclosed in the accounts unless it occurred in a later period.

 

It was to assist the club, how KA then got this in to the club is a matter of debate, it wasn’t as a direct loan, the accounts reflect that. 

A series of invoices would allow Ken to factor through ICI or another vehicle.

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7 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

It was to assist the club, how KA then got this in to the club is a matter of debate, it wasn’t as a direct loan, the accounts reflect that. 

A series of invoices would allow Ken to factor through ICI or another vehicle.

You are again trying to muddy the waters, Howard. Directors are legally obliged to disclose related party transactions and Ken has done so  but without making any mention of nearly £3million that he has allegedly spent on behalf of the club from loans advanced by Eddie Davies.

So I repeat  again, where is the evidence of these c.£3million of loans that you claim to be a secured debt of the club?

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15 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

You are again trying to muddy the waters, Howard. Directors are legally obliged to disclose related party transactions and Ken has done so  but without making any mention of nearly £3million that he has allegedly spent on behalf of the club from loans advanced by Eddie Davies.

So I repeat  again, where is the evidence of these c.£3million of loans that you claim to be a secured debt of the club?

No, Chris, I originally said they were secured but have since corrected to say that £5M is secured and £3M is not. I would suggest you refer to John Galt’s post regarding ‘forensic accounting’ showing a higher debt than declared. 

You talk like a straight laced accountant and work from assumptions that KA has at all times acted honourably, that cannot be the basis of your argument, surely?

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1 hour ago, HomerJay said:

Not too far from the truth, in essence.

Question is does he really want stack his cards?

Big gamble on his part... 

He is at risk of financially ruining himself and folk continue to give him stick.

 

Tough shit, that's business etc. etc.

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1 minute ago, Howardroark said:

No, Chris, I originally said they were secured but have since corrected to say that £5M is secured and £3M is not. I would suggest you refer to John Galt’s post regarding ‘forensic accounting’ showing a higher debt than declared. 

You talk like a straight laced accountant and work from assumptions that KA has at all times acted honourably, that cannot be the basis of your argument, surely?

😂😂

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3 hours ago, Benny The Ball said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This thread is getting weirder by the day - its turning  into a real life version of one of my favourite films "Field Of Dreams "

Does anyone know if Doctor Faustus has got the landscape gardeners around at his place at the moment ?  

 

 

Sadly not...

 

Though the wife has the decorators in

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