Take Over

[MancWanderer]

59 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

I'm sorry but I've always worked on the basis that most folk are capable of understanding simple financial concepts when they are explained to them. You don't need to be Richard Osman to get your head round the difference between borrowing and equity or between a secured loan and an unsecured one. 

The first part of your statement is correct in so much as I understand borrowing, equity and secured/unsecured loans when it applies to my personal finances

What I cannot yet get my head around is when all this applies to a large business such as a football club and this myriad of companies (Inner Circle, Burnden Leisure, etc) and the web of loans, shares, etc

That said I’ve found that Howard’s replies are slowly making things clearer and I take the conclusions that he draws as valuable insights and conclusions that he’s come to rather than outright ITK statements

I wouldn’t expect you to understand the difference between a secondary-generalised or primary-generalised tonic-clonic seizure in epilepsy and why directing treatment at the AMPA receptor (particularly in the former) may be beneficial, even if you have a basic understanding of the genesis of epileptic seizures

[Zico]

13 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

Because he’s a greedy so and so 

What's your take on the consultancy fees we know about and everything else you either know about or can confidently conclude on, regards how much KA has been milking the club (or not) these past 3 years, and when the dust settles what would be your best guess that he made out of the club?

And do you reckon he did tell Vince at FGR that he wasn't bothered if he bankrupted the club as he'd be reet, or was it said in the heat of the moment, based on what you know?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

7 minutes ago, MancWanderer said:

The first part of your statement is correct in so much as I understand borrowing, equity and secured/unsecured loans when it applies to my personal finances

What I cannot yet get my head around is when all this applies to a large business such as a football club and this myriad of companies (Inner Circle, Burnden Leisure, etc) and the web of loans, shares, etc

That said I’ve found that Howard’s replies are slowly making things clearer and I take the conclusions that he draws as valuable insights and conclusions that he’s come to rather than outright ITK statements

I wouldn’t expect you to understand the difference between a secondary-generalised or primary-generalised tonic-clonic seizure in epilepsy and why directing treatment at the AMPA receptor (particularly in the former) may be beneficial, even if you have a basic understanding of the genesis of epileptic seizures

Kinell. Mine are generalised tonic clinic seizures, though I don't know beyond that!!

Alcohol is a cunt for me though!

[Howardroark]

8 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

What's your take on the consultancy fees we know about and everything else you either know about or can confidently conclude on, regards how much KA has been milking the club (or not) these past 3 years, and when the dust settles what would be your best guess that he made out of the club?

And do you reckon he did tell Vince at FGR that he wasn't bothered if he bankrupted the club as he'd be reet, or was it said in the heat of the moment, based on what you know?

It’s impossible to say, there’s the issues around the £3M loans from Moonshift that may or may not have ended up with BWFC, then there’s wider issues such as whose bank accounts the EFL money was paid in to, how much was borrowed against EFL money and how much was paid back etc. 

You have things like supplier rebates that may have been paid elsewhere, agent fees etc. 

I imagine he did say it to FGR, and meant it , but based on FGR owner I’d say it was probably a ‘biggest balls’ contest,

[Boby Brno]

16 minutes ago, MancWanderer said:

The first part of your statement is correct in so much as I understand borrowing, equity and secured/unsecured loans when it applies to my personal finances

What I cannot yet get my head around is when all this applies to a large business such as a football club and this myriad of companies (Inner Circle, Burnden Leisure, etc) and the web of loans, shares, etc

That said I’ve found that Howard’s replies are slowly making things clearer and I take the conclusions that he draws as valuable insights and conclusions that he’s come to rather than outright ITK statements

I wouldn’t expect you to understand the difference between a secondary-generalised or primary-generalised tonic-clonic seizure in epilepsy and why directing treatment at the AMPA receptor (particularly in the former) may be beneficial, even if you have a basic understanding of the genesis of epileptic seizures

Or even the dendritic growth process during the solidification of molten metals.

(not that I have an interest in it now)

Stick around Howard otherwise we’ll be reverting back to knocking the local SPORTS journalist.

[darrener]

10 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

It’s impossible to say, there’s the issues around the £3M loans from Moonshift that may or may not have ended up with BWFC, then there’s wider issues such as whose bank accounts the EFL money was paid in to, how much was borrowed against EFL money and how much was paid back etc. 

You have things like supplier rebates that may have been paid elsewhere, agent fees etc. 

I imagine he did say it to FGR, and meant it , but based on FGR owner I’d say it was probably a ‘biggest balls’ contest,

Howard do you think Ken will be happy with the deal that he's getting off the buyer or do you see him trying to squeeze a bit more out of it if he can? 

[Howardroark]

2 minutes ago, darrener said:

Howard do you think Ken will be happy with the deal that he's getting off the buyer or do you see him trying to squeeze a bit more out of it if he can? 

I assume he was happy with the initial offer, the issue is two fold 

1) Do they have to reduce KA’s offer if they discover any issues & how will he react? 

2) Does KA increase his requirements based on fantasy bids from ‘other’ parties. 

The likelihood is however that they’ll just maintain the offer as it is and use any hidden debts as leverage against any new demands from Ken’s.

This is the fundamental difference of the Basran group, their funding situation meant that they had to reduce the offer when new debts emerged. KA couldn’t make the link between the two. They also wanted to pay in instalments.

Ken knows that a ‘cash buyer’ is rare (as opppsed to one looking to negotiate with creditors) this again strengthens the hand of the buyer against any other bidders. 

It should be noted as well that any new bidder is 2 weeks behind on DD. 

Long and short of it, Ken wouldn’t be Ken if he didn’t try and get a bit more, but I think he’ll consider himself fortunate to have got anything when he looks back in a few months time.

[Jcookie]

1 hour ago, Howardroark said:

If Ken moved the goalposts to an unprofitable level?

Surely ken can only do that if he finds another bidder who is going to pay them silly terms which is unlikely! My guess is that if someone agrees more he will just push and push and not stop trying to move the goalposts until has no time left eg. Day before he loses his shares? Because in Ken’s mind he never has a final figure he will just push until someone walks away or there a big deadline such as what we had on Wednesday in court!

My guess of what you have been saying about timescales on the deal getting completed; Do you think he will play it out with other bidders for a week or so in hope he can get more money elsewhere because I suppose what has he got to lose? But will then deal on the 1st/2nd April as your predicting Howard when he realises he won’t get a better deal before the deadline of him losing his shares and him getting nothing? Or think he may deal earlier?

[Howardroark]

Just now, Jcookie said:

Surely ken can only do that if he finds another bidder who is going to pay them silly terms which is unlikely! My guess is that if someone agrees more he will just push and push and not stop trying to move the goalposts until has no time left eg. Day before he loses his shares? Because in Ken’s mind he never has a final figure he will just push until someone walks away or there a big deadline such as what we had on Wednesday in court!

My guess of what you have been saying about timescales on the deal getting completed; Do you think he will play it out with other bidders for a week or so in hope he can get more money elsewhere because I suppose what has he got to lose? But will then deal on the 1st/2nd April as your predicting Howard when he realises he won’t get a better deal before the deadline of him losing his shares and him getting nothing? Or think he may deal earlier?

I think he will take a realistic decision on pay day, if there’s nobody else in the picture that can be verified and has the ability to close then he may just sign then.

If it gets past pay day then it’ll be on the 2nd and it’ll be him holding out hope of a Sheikh with a literal bag of cash. 

Should be noted that the adjournment was granted on the basis of all the debts being paid in full by the 3rd, it’s therefore highly unlikely that a party looking to do deals with creditors will even now be considered. So it’s about who seriously has £30M+ in liquid, legitimate funds. 

Why does it need to be liquid? Because all creditors will need to be satisfied, you cannot prioritise the full payment of a debt to one creditor and not the other when under a WU due to substitution (you saw 2 other creditors on Weds who were waiting to pounce).

[darrener]

4 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

I think he will take a realistic decision on pay day, if there’s nobody else in the picture that can be verified and has the ability to close then he may just sign then.

If it gets past pay day then it’ll be on the 2nd and it’ll be him holding out hope of a Sheikh with a literal bag of cash. 

Should be noted that the adjournment was granted on the basis of all the debts being paid in full by the 3rd, it’s therefore highly unlikely that a party looking to do deals with creditors will even now be considered. So it’s about who seriously has £30M+ in liquid, legitimate funds. 

Why does it need to be liquid? Because all creditors will need to be satisfied, you cannot prioritise the full payment of a debt to one creditor and not the other when under a WU due to substitution (you saw 2 other creditors on Weds who were waiting to pounce).

So hopefully it could be done before end of march payday, nixon seems to think other people are lurking, Kenyon was mentioned. If true are the other potential bidders just waiting for the deal to collapse or is nixon just being fed bullshit? 

[JJ10]

.

Edited March 22, 2019 by JJ10
Wrong

[Howardroark]

1 minute ago, darrener said:

So hopefully it could be done before end of march payday, nixon seems to think other people are lurking, Kenyon was mentioned. If true are the other potential bidders just waiting for the deal to collapse or is nixon just being fed bullshit? 

In a distressed business situation you will always have ‘other bidders’, just like the publicity generated will bring out all of the fantasists. 

Alan Nixon will be getting tips from all over the place, but the reality is that for the past  4 months there have only been two bidders, Basran and the new bidder, nobody expressed an interest until after the court case which indicates that they were either: 

a) Not overly serious in the first place 

b) Hoping to pick the bones from liquidation order 

Nixon is just playing the game, and he’s good at it, but he knows nothing about the bidder, if he did then Ken or PA have broken an NDA and probably lost the deal.

[JJ10]

Howard.. been reading a bit. Great insight.. thanks! 

Has the buyer got the £30m available and accessible easily enough to buy the club and clear the debt before the next court hearing? How long would this potentially take? I.e. how long before the court date do they need to close to give themselves time to clear debts? 

Also do you know if they’ve a decent level of funding to make a difference once in?

Cheers

[Mantra]

4 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

In a distressed business situation you will always have ‘other bidders’, just like the publicity generated will bring out all of the fantasists. 

Alan Nixon will be getting tips from all over the place, but the reality is that for the past  4 months there have only been two bidders, Basran and the new bidder, nobody expressed an interest until after the court case which indicates that they were either: 

a) Not overly serious in the first place 

b) Hoping to pick the bones from liquidation order 

Nixon is just playing the game, and he’s good at it, but he knows nothing about the bidder, if he did then Ken or PA have broken an NDA and probably lost the deal.

 Why does it actually matter if the bidder is revealed before they wish to be?

Obviously, it breaks NDA but does that directly nullify the deal? Or is it more a matter of principle?

[Howardroark]

5 minutes ago, Mantra said:

 Why does it actually matter if the bidder is revealed before they wish to be?

Obviously, it breaks NDA but does that directly nullify the deal? Or is it more a matter of principle?

As I’ve said previously, money talks but wealth whispers

[Howardroark]

28 minutes ago, JJ10 said:

Howard.. been reading a bit. Great insight.. thanks! 

Has the buyer got the £30m available and accessible easily enough to buy the club and clear the debt before the next court hearing? How long would this potentially take? I.e. how long before the court date do they need to close to give themselves time to clear debts? 

Also do you know if they’ve a decent level of funding to make a difference once in?

Cheers

Yes they have it, transactions can be done some day via CHAPS transfer so right up to the 2nd. 

The only delay may be if funds are coming from outside of the UK, but shouldn’t be an issue unless it’s coming from a dodgy nation. 

Funding is subjective, there’s their net worth but that’s not an indication of level of spend, think of Lakshmi Mittal at QPR.

 

[darrener]

34 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

In a distressed business situation you will always have ‘other bidders’, just like the publicity generated will bring out all of the fantasists. 

Alan Nixon will be getting tips from all over the place, but the reality is that for the past  4 months there have only been two bidders, Basran and the new bidder, nobody expressed an interest until after the court case which indicates that they were either: 

a) Not overly serious in the first place 

b) Hoping to pick the bones from liquidation order 

Nixon is just playing the game, and he’s good at it, but he knows nothing about the bidder, if he did then Ken or PA have broken an NDA and probably lost the deal.

Cheers Howard 

[Benny The Ball]

2 hours ago, Boo said:

Howard, was Allardyce involved in one of the consortiums, or is that a load of bollocks?

Would certainly make life interesting If Sam popped up in some capacity 

 

[Benny The Ball]

Just now, Mr Grey said:

Just heard the Allardyce rumour, is Craig involved? ... could be a Ken & Lee swap!

I would have Sam back in a heart beat, Director of Football maybe. Fucking chicken oriental all this!

I heard it a while ago and dismissed it as wishful thinking ... but its looking like there is something in it 

 

[Benny The Ball]

 

9 minutes ago, Mr Grey said:

Howard you've gone quiet 😏

In fairness to Howard he was asked If he thought BSA was involved in one of the consortiums and replied unlikely 

If you read "involved " as meaning as an investor he is most likely correct

If however someone asked had the Dark Horse Consortium sounded out BSA  in advance and got from him a commitment to participate in some capacity if they are successful with their bid and then used that as part of their package that persuaded ED Trustees to support that bid  -that's when it potentially gets very  interesting

 

 

[Benny The Ball]

Just now, Mr Grey said:

Phew! 

To be fair, H is a fucking legend..

hopefully

There's an article that's come up on the Burnden Aces website 

https://www.burndenaces.co.uk/2019/03/22/sam-allardyce-expresses-interest-in-bolton-return.html

Hope they dont mind me quoting a section of it .... looks as though its from a Talk Sport Interview he has done today which is where presumably this speculation has arisen from 

Whilst appearing to rule out a potential return as manager, the 64-year-old has expressed a desire to assist in a boardroom capacity but only if a consortium approached him for support.

"It's crossed my mind many times," he added. "That can only be done by the right backers wanting me to do it.

"I don't think I'd ever go back and manage them - I think that's somebody else's job now - but in terms of helping out and running it, yes it would interest me.

"But the first thing for Bolton is not me. The first thing is finding a consortium to take over what is a great club, with great facilities and a fantastic stadium."

 

 

 

 

[Boothy]

What would he know about being on the board?

[HomerJay]

17 minutes ago, Boothy said:

What would he know about being on the board?

Director of football.

I think he would be good at it.

[e2e4]

All this stuff about buying out of davies's chunk and cutting king ken out .. he (davies) sold it to Sports Shield in the first place , i think the quote was "i know they have the money" but about 6 months later Sports Shield was bankrupt and ken anderson owned 96% of bwfc shares . 

Whether Ken Anderson can afford to keep it running is up to him , he's said he cannot. 

so .. why would you buy out the davies's 5-10 million holdover to seize the club from under his nose or force ken to sell or give it to you? . If

A, you are loaded. 

B, have the clubs interests first in mind. 

seems to me that Anderson doesnt want to be in a position were he sells it to the first knobhead that comes in like Davies did. 

When i looked it up, burden leisure turned over more money than jeff thomas's UKCloud .

i laughed when that collapsed because it felt like they were trying to run out the clock . couldnt believe he'd got another 3 weeks when it went to the court . 

The going round Anderson and things [wait til they get put in adminstration, then buy them] talk doesnt inspire confidence. 

I'd rather hear " I can talk to other interested parties " , "There is a new bidder" , even if its a bluff. it seems to piss off timewasters. although he cant do it forever. 

I hope it all works out

 

 

 

[burnden]

Big Sam interview on talksport  https://talksport.com/football/efl/515533/bolton-wanderers-sam-allardyce-talksport/