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2 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

I follow a guy on Facebook and one thing he's amazed by is the number of people who  bang in about science being the proof behind everything until it conflicts with their own personal views.

They'll babg on about the science showing climate change but then be dead against the science when it comes to vaccines or GM foods

There is always this fear with to foods about how they may interact with species in the wider area.

Always makes me uneasy. We've engineered new species of plants for centuries, but only by cross breeding, which I suppose is something nature does anyway, just slower. Removing bits of DNA and substituting bits from elsewhere does concern me. Especially if unscrupulous companies cut corners.

 

Birch makes a good point too; what I didn't know until a couple of days ago was that the UK produces more offshore wind produced electricity than the rest of the world combined.

Seems almost impossible, but pretty good nonetheless.

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One issue with using the UK emissions figures and praising them is that British business does most of its polluting abroad where wages and costs are dirt cheap.

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Just now, frank_spencer said:

One issue with using the UK emissions figures and praising them is that British business does most of its polluting abroad where wages and costs are dirt cheap.

I understand this and in the main agree with it. These companies are still providing investment and jobs. Yes often cheap labour, and nations with poor environmental standards. 

However someone from some country or other will move in or the nation itself will develop its own industries according to need of its people.

It's therefore the responsibility of everyone involved to improve their efforts.

Would like the UN to sort this sort of thing out, but it's largely ineffective when major nations can veto things.

Therefore folk over here refusing to buy cheap, throw away shite and demand more ethically produced stuff.

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That's the thing with GMO's - they sound scary when in reality they're benign and incredibly helpful for growing drought/pest resistant crops. Or giving some crops other properties like 'golden rice'.

Totally with you Sweep - people are all for science until it contradicts a belief you hold. Where as in reality - that's the whole beauty of it!

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5 minutes ago, kent_white said:

That's the thing with GMO's - they sound scary when in reality they're benign and incredibly helpful for growing drought/pest resistant crops. Or giving some crops other properties like 'golden rice'.

Totally with you Sweep - people are all for science until it contradicts a belief you hold. Where as in reality - that's the whole beauty of it!

Has their benign status been totally confirmed though?

I know it is impossible to prove it 100%, but as I understand it, it could take many years to determine if they have caused issues such as interbreeding or outcompeting other species or varieties.

If you have any pertinent links, shove them on here and I'll have a look.

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28 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Has their benign status been totally confirmed though?

I know it is impossible to prove it 100%, but as I understand it, it could take many years to determine if they have caused issues such as interbreeding or outcompeting other species or varieties.

If you have any pertinent links, shove them on here and I'll have a look.

That's the point I guess. You can never 100% rule out that there's a hazard to anything. And people use that to frighten and mislead the public.

Thousands of people have been desperately trying to find a problem with them for years - but they've not found one. 

This link explains the position pretty well.

https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/blog/2016/05/gmo-safety-debate-is-over/

That's not to say we shouldn't regulate things efficiently or keep a very watchful eye out for anything occuring - but as things stand. Eat away! :)

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1 hour ago, birch-chorley said:

XR had a spokeswomen on the news the other day saying 30 years of government have done nothing to combat climate change. Completely wrong and completely counter productive 

The same day it was announced by the national grid that for the third month running over 50% of our electricity was generated by renewable sources!! We now release less Carbon than we did when Queen Victoria died (when the population was half of what it is now). 

We are on track to recycle over 50% of all waste by next year and 10% of new cars sold are now electric or hybrid. 

But let these tickets go round telling people that nothing has happened! 

Let this lot protest and ruin people’s days whilst other people quietly go about making an actual difference 

Our government are doing something and the rise of renewables is great to see. But we are still causing a lot of damage abroad, we're way behind on our Paris targets (further than China are) and we're investing far more in fossil fuels than renewables. The current method of measuring emissions is inaccurate and misleading. Let's not also forget that a whole host of our current cabinet supported initiatives which were actively involved in promoting climate deinal. Now the science is too strong they have employed a new tactic of telling us we're doing enough and we can continue to invest in fossil fuels as long as we offset the damage. If we all adopted that mentally we would be completely fucked. 

We're doing nowhere near enough and the inaction of the past 30 years will go down as one of the great failures of our time. I think any protester has a right to point this out. Unless you're using some of the least well off as bait for your message, then you can do one. 
 

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3 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

Our government are doing something and the rise of renewables is great to see. But we are still causing a lot of damage abroad, we're way behind on our Paris targets (further than China are) and we're investing far more in fossil fuels than renewables. The current method of measuring emissions is inaccurate and misleading. Let's not also forget that a whole host of our current cabinet supported initiatives which were actively involved in promoting climate deinal. Now the science is too strong they have employed a new tactic of telling us we're doing enough and we can continue to invest in fossil fuels as long as we offset the damage. If we all adopted that mentally we would be completely fucked. 

We're doing nowhere near enough and the inaction of the past 30 years will go down as one of the great failures of our time. I think any protester has a right to point this out. Unless you're using some of the least well off as bait for your message, then you can do one. 
 

I’m sorry but that seems a bit all over the place to me 

Have we, or have we not just generated over 50% of our electricity from renewable sources for the previous three months? How does that compare to 30 years ago 

Anyone who thinks that this is not a monumental achievement is as bad as the climate change deniers in my book

Protesters have a right to protest, not ruin other people’s days (I got luckily on the jubilee line yesterday thankfully). However, I will reserve my respect for the people who are actually working on projects that are helping 

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Pretty sure 99% of people are in agreement that disrupting normal folks' daily business is cuntish. It's just a massive distraction, as it gets folk talking about a few cunts rather than the enormous issue we need to tackle. Hopefully those at the top of the organisation know that and are doing something about it.

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15 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Pretty sure 99% of people are in agreement that disrupting normal folks' daily business is cuntish. It's just a massive distraction, as it gets folk talking about a few cunts rather than the enormous issue we need to tackle. Hopefully those at the top of the organisation know that and are doing something about it.

Absolutely 

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14 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Pretty sure 99% of people are in agreement that disrupting normal folks' daily business is cuntish. It's just a massive distraction, as it gets folk talking about a few cunts rather than the enormous issue we need to tackle. Hopefully those at the top of the organisation know that and are doing something about it.

I think the problem is there is no hierarchy within the organisation. In fact, there is no "organisation" as such. It seems to be lone wolves deciding to make their own individual protest.

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29 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

Our government are doing something and the rise of renewables is great to see. But we are still causing a lot of damage abroad, we're way behind on our Paris targets (further than China are) and we're investing far more in fossil fuels than renewables. The current method of measuring emissions is inaccurate and misleading. Let's not also forget that a whole host of our current cabinet supported initiatives which were actively involved in promoting climate deinal. Now the science is too strong they have employed a new tactic of telling us we're doing enough and we can continue to invest in fossil fuels as long as we offset the damage. If we all adopted that mentally we would be completely fucked. 

We're doing nowhere near enough and the inaction of the past 30 years will go down as one of the great failures of our time. I think any protester has a right to point this out. Unless you're using some of the least well off as bait for your message, then you can do one. 
 

This report says we are on track but may not be in future years.

https://www.theccc.org.uk/tackling-climate-change/reducing-carbon-emissions/how-the-uk-is-progressing/

This report says China’s highly insufficient and Russia and the USA critically insufficient. The UK is lumped in with the EU so does not accurately reflect our progress. Any facts to disprove this?

https://climateactiontracker.org/

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5 minutes ago, Boby Brno said:

This report says we are on track but may not be in future years.

https://www.theccc.org.uk/tackling-climate-change/reducing-carbon-emissions/how-the-uk-is-progressing/

This report says China’s highly insufficient and Russia and the USA critically insufficient. The UK is lumped in with the EU so does not accurately reflect our progress. Any facts to disprove this?

https://climateactiontracker.org/

So maybe these protesters could fuck off to Moscow, Beijing or Washington, DC to do their protesting. The problem is, they'd probably get beaten up in China, jailed in Russia and laughed at or shot in USA.

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We are doing our bit, which is fantastic. It would be great to be carbon neutral by 2050 (or whatever the target is). We led the world into a heavy industrial re Oli toon and I believe we should be leading the way out of it 

However, the battlefield for Climate change won’t be fought here, it’s in the developing world where the real fighting will take place! Difficult one telling them to do their bit when we have had our time in the sun.The primary focus for developing countries is economic growth that brings prosperity to many poor citizens, I can empathise with that 

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2 hours ago, MickyD said:

So maybe these protesters could fuck off to Moscow, Beijing or Washington, DC to do their protesting. The problem is, they'd probably get beaten up in China, jailed in Russia and laughed at or shot in USA.

This one is the weakest of all of the common criticisms made against XR for me. Clearly they can't do that. But an XR US movement might be able to.

Even if some of the London protesters did you'd be criticising them for getting a flight over there! :)

Can see an argument for protesting outside the respective embassies though!

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2 hours ago, Boby Brno said:

This report says we are on track but may not be in future years.

https://www.theccc.org.uk/tackling-climate-change/reducing-carbon-emissions/how-the-uk-is-progressing/

This report says China’s highly insufficient and Russia and the USA critically insufficient. The UK is lumped in with the EU so does not accurately reflect our progress. Any facts to disprove this?

https://climateactiontracker.org/

The report you posted says, "UK is on track to meet the third (2018-22) carbon budget, but is not on track to meet the fourth, which covers the period 2023-27". In simple terms that suggests we are off meeting our overhall target and therefore are not doing enough. Interestingly, it doesn't tell us how far off we are. The panorama link I posted to you earlier in the thread has a bloke representing the same committee saying we're not doing enough. The longer we delay in meeting those targets the more it will cost to meet them and the more damage it will do to our economy. 

This is the study I saw about China being on target. 
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2211366-china-is-on-track-to-meet-its-climate-change-goals-nine-years-early/

I'm not for one second suggesting the likes of Russia, China and America have it sorted, far from it mate. My point has always been that we are a part of that system. I also think it is damaging to see this as a nation by nation issue. That isn't how emissions and global industry operates. Yes we may have done amazing things with renewable energy in this country but we're still supportin fossil fuels abroad. Our own government is still investing billions in oil, gas, deforestation and coal abroad. British based businesses and our banks are doing exactly the same. As I've said before, we take no responsiblity for the vast amounts of emissions we dump across the globe. And it's the protestor with the smart phone who is the hypocrit in all of this. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-fossil-fuels-uk-funding-environment-export-finance-a9129731.html

 

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12 minutes ago, kent_white said:

This one is the weakest of all of the common criticisms made against XR for me. Clearly they can't do that. But an XR US movement might be able to.

Even if some of the London protesters did you'd be criticising them for getting a flight over there! :)

Can see an argument for protesting outside the respective embassies though!

It's an incredibly weak argument that lacks any understanding of the situation. Completely bonkers that our own government uses it regularly. Our government and financial sector are investing far more in the damaging practices of those countries that they are in renewable energy and sustainablity projects. Folk have every right to be protesting here.

For me, the criticism is that a few fellas standing on top of an eco friendly mode of public transport, stopping folk getting to work in one of the poorer districts in London, is a shite way to get your message across. It clearly has completely the opposite effect.

Edited by London Wanderer

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Just now, London Wanderer said:

It's an incredibly weak argument that lacks any understanding of the situation. Completely bonkers that our own government uses it regularly. Our government and financial sector are investing far more in the damaging practices of those countries that they are in renewable energy and sustainablity projects. Folk have every right to be protesting here.

For me, the criticism is that a few fellas standing on top of an eco friendly mode of public transport, stopping folk getting to work in one of the poorer districts in London, is a shite way to get your message across. 

That's the first thing that I thought. Why have you gone for a system of mass transportation? I think it's electric as well isn't it? Tried to do some reading about whether it's an environmentally friendly mode of transport. All I could find was something about particulates being 30x higher in areas where the tube operates. But compared to all those people travelling by car (which would be bonkers) I'd say the tube is the least of our worries.

XR is a broad church and that's its strength and it's weakness. My understanding is anybody can say they're representing XR as long as they abide by a few basic principles. Non violence etc. So you're going to get big disagreement on what the best forms of action should be. Sure I read somewhere that the overwhelming majority of XR members were against that type of protest. But the genie is out of the bottle now. They've no real way of controlling it without an actual physical membership or hierarchy.

The easiest way to fuck it up would be to get someone state sponsored to carry out a load of similar stunts in XR's name and kill it that way. That's what I'd do of I was being all Machiavellian about it anyway! 

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2 hours ago, MickyD said:

So maybe these protesters could fuck off to Moscow, Beijing or Washington, DC to do their protesting. The problem is, they'd probably get beaten up in China, jailed in Russia and laughed at or shot in USA.

So you're saying they shouldn't protest in our country, because there would be serious consequences if they did it in other countries?

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7 minutes ago, Cheese said:

So you're saying they shouldn't protest in our country, because there would be serious consequences if they did it in other countries?

Think he’s just saying they should fuck off. I could be wrong 

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3 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

I’m sorry but that seems a bit all over the place to me 

Have we, or have we not just generated over 50% of our electricity from renewable sources for the previous three months? How does that compare to 30 years ago 

Anyone who thinks that this is not a monumental achievement is as bad as the climate change deniers in my book

Protesters have a right to protest, not ruin other people’s days (I got luckily on the jubilee line yesterday thankfully). However, I will reserve my respect for the people who are actually working on projects that are helping 

Yes we have. I haven't checked it but I'm sure you're right. It is a monumental achievement and the true heroes are the people working on these projects, they deserve your respect. I agree with much of what you've said in your other post below. We can play a huge part in this. And it is a monumental challenge to persuade developing nations that they won't reap the same benefits we did from fossil fuels. 

We've made progress but renewable energy is just a piece in the puzzle. Our wildlife and ecosystems around the UK has been steadily declining at a terrifying rate. We are one of the worst countries in the world for this. Our soil has been dangerously degraded through poor farming practice. To the point where we only have 60 harvests left in parts of the country if we don't change our methods. And whilst we generate more and more renewable energy in this country, we continue to invest ridiculous amounts of money in fossil fuels abroad and fund projects that cause huge environmental damage. I can't ignore that level of hypocrisy.

Unfortunately XR are currently doing a shite job of raising awareness on this issue. But when you look away from the idiots on the tube, you will see many of the members are involved in projects that are making a difference. Many are farmers, scientists and researchers, trying to highlight the hypocrisy of current government policy.

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33 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

The report you posted says, "UK is on track to meet the third (2018-22) carbon budget, but is not on track to meet the fourth, which covers the period 2023-27". In simple terms that suggests we are off meeting our overhall target and therefore are not doing enough. Interestingly, it doesn't tell us how far off we are. The panorama link I posted to you earlier in the thread has a bloke representing the same committee saying we're not doing enough. The longer we delay in meeting those targets the more it will cost to meet them and the more damage it will do to our economy. 

This is the study I saw about China being on target. 
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2211366-china-is-on-track-to-meet-its-climate-change-goals-nine-years-early/

I'm not for one second suggesting the likes of Russia, China and America have it sorted, far from it mate. My point has always been that we are a part of that system. I also think it is damaging to see this as a nation by nation issue. That isn't how emissions and global industry operates. Yes we may have done amazing things with renewable energy in this country but we're still supportin fossil fuels abroad. Our own government is still investing billions in oil, gas, deforestation and coal abroad. British based businesses and our banks are doing exactly the same. As I've said before, we take no responsiblity for the vast amounts of emissions we dump across the globe. And it's the protestor with the smart phone who is the hypocrit in all of this. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-fossil-fuels-uk-funding-environment-export-finance-a9129731.html

 

Your first link. There is a ‘however’ at the bottom.

Your second link. It says investing in developing nations. (Lets leave them as they are)

Extinction Agitators are high on rhetoric and low on facts.

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42 minutes ago, kent_white said:

This one is the weakest of all of the common criticisms made against XR for me. Clearly they can't do that. But an XR US movement might be able to.

Even if some of the London protesters did you'd be criticising them for getting a flight over there! :)

Can see an argument for protesting outside the respective embassies though!

But I assume you don't see much mileage in a Chinese or Russian XR movement. I wonder why that is.

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48 minutes ago, kent_white said:

 

Can see an argument for protesting outside the respective embassies though!

Whoa there! I suggested that last week.

They obviously don’t read this and chose Canning Town instead. Bad mistake and an excuse to post this. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Boby Brno said:

Your first link. There is a ‘however’ at the bottom.

Your second link. It says investing in developing nations. (Lets leave them as they are)

Extinction Agitators are high on rhetoric and low on facts.

Probably worth pointing out that none of my arguments stem from Extinction Rebellion. And I'm not on here defending their actions. Neither of the links I posted were written by folk from XR or were written for them. It is only you linking what I've posted to XR rhetoric. 

Having a 'however' in a report doesn't automatically discredit everything it says. It's an example of taking a balanced argument. Something society is lacking in heaps at the moment. Disgreeing with supporting developing nations to combat climate change is a completely seperate point to what we were discussing. If you disagree with that point then fair enough, but it doesn't make all the other information false. 

I've given you plenty of factual evidence that we're responsible for more emissions than the charts say and that we are investing far too much in fossil fuels. Apparently we're the worst in the EU for this. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/23/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission

We've been round in circles on this anyhow. Like I said, I'm sure your doing your bit for the cause. If you think we don't matter and aren't responsible then fair do's. I'll be taking the opposite view. Even if I'm wrong, the worst that happens is we end up with a healthier ecosystem and cleaner energy a few years earlier than expected. Whilst simultaneously supporting other countries to do the same. 

Edited by London Wanderer

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