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TrickyTrotter

FV Ownership Model

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1 hour ago, Traf said:

Tough one, I quite like Andy Holt for the way he comes out and is relatively open to all and sundry, but some of his views are very wide of the mark. 

you have lived in the hills to long then :D

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2 minutes ago, peelyfeet said:

that's right,  and the reason for that was something that happened to me on social media (not BWFC related in any way). Had to delete my facebook, linkedin, and original twitter id - and it worked, plus I've got more time to read WW now😉  

Perhaps you should practice what you preach then.

12 hours ago, peelyfeet said:

I think you would both benefit by reading up on the difference between critics and trolls, and how to deal with both.

 

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1 hour ago, birch-chorley said:

He has a bit of a point 

The situation with ourselves and Bury has been a joke really, I can’t recall anything like it in the league before, perhaps I wasn’t looking close enough when Luton, Pompey etc went through it all 

It feels like more are going to go the same way sooner or later, the EFL need to step in and set some rules / guidelines up should it happen again 

If your not ready to start the season (financially), then you probably shouldn’t be doing so, we’ve got through by the skin of our teeth but I imagine that things will change 

He's not specifically talking about us and Bury now though. He's crying because we were the whipping boys of the division because of the EFL and now we actually might win a few games. 

Our situation is unique (in the fact that we had 2 morons stopping the deal every possible chance), but we were supposed to be close to completing the deal. If the EFL stopped us from starting the season but the deal was done 2 days later as was due, then we'd all be pissed off being docked another 3-6pts+. 

I think the EFL need to take more preventive action, and I agree with Andy in that sense. Just seems like he's bitter that a few teams got an easy run out against us. Properly disrespecting the kids leaving everything out there every game so far though. Hope we arsehole them 5-0 so he can moan some more. 

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17 minutes ago, SilentBob said:

He's not specifically talking about us and Bury now though. He's crying because we were the whipping boys of the division because of the EFL and now we actually might win a few games. 

Our situation is unique (in the fact that we had 2 morons stopping the deal every possible chance), but we were supposed to be close to completing the deal. If the EFL stopped us from starting the season but the deal was done 2 days later as was due, then we'd all be pissed off being docked another 3-6pts+. 

I think the EFL need to take more preventive action, and I agree with Andy in that sense. Just seems like he's bitter that a few teams got an easy run out against us. Properly disrespecting the kids leaving everything out there every game so far though. Hope we arsehole them 5-0 so he can moan some more. 

This all might be irrelevant come the end of the season 

However if for whatever reason our situation has a baring on who’s going up or down I don’t doubt that some will be questioning how it was all handled 

Imagine a team that has spanked us staying up by a point, or we stay up by a point after only getting a -3pt deduction for missing Donny.Do we need to replay the Donny game, do they get it awarded. What if they go up by a point after being awarded a potentially tough fixture at our place 

Its a can of worms 

Edited by birch-chorley

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6 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

This all might be irrelevant come the end of the season 

However if for whatever reason our situation has a baring on who’s going up or down I don’t that some will be questioning how it was all handled 

Imagine a team that has spanked us staying up by a point, or we stay up by a point after only getting a -3pt deduction for missing Donny.Do we need to replay the Donny game, do they get it awarded. What if they go up by a point after being awarded a potentially tough fixture at our place 

Its a can of worms 

Think that's the point. He's trying to have a pop over a massively hypothetical possibility.

With the Doncaster game it'd probably be harsh for a serious punishment, because it can be rescheduled. I think we'll get a 6pt deduction for the Brentford game, so EFL will probably release a statement and shove Doncaster in the statement so it looks like 3 points each game.

Think he's just finding something to moan about, and no one is taking to it kindly seeing as it's the first time in 18 months we've actually had a reason to be happy/optimistic. Absolutely no need to stick the boot in, especially when everything is now sorted and the people responsible for the shit that happened have gone. We'll deal with the EFL punishments when they come and that should be the end. 

Not every bunch of fans wishing us the best a week ago and now crying because they didn't play us before last weekend so want us to go under again. 

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51 minutes ago, Big E said:

you have lived in the hills to long then :D

Fuck off, you Kenapologistic Scouse cunt xx

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34 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

This all might be irrelevant come the end of the season 

However if for whatever reason our situation has a baring on who’s going up or down I don’t doubt that some will be questioning how it was all handled 

Imagine a team that has spanked us staying up by a point, or we stay up by a point after only getting a -3pt deduction for missing Donny.Do we need to replay the Donny game, do they get it awarded. What if they go up by a point after being awarded a potentially tough fixture at our place 

Its a can of worms 

What did you want the EFL to do? Stop us starting till the takeover was done. Would you want the clock to have started to our expulsion with Ken and Bassini in play? Would that have helped the takeover complete or hindered it?

The EFL are damned if they do and damned if they don't. In the end they were asked to put a deadline on it by admins and did so - which got it across the line. Perhaps that would have worked in late July but I suspect it might have made it worse. 

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25 minutes ago, SilentBob said:

Think that's the point. He's trying to have a pop over a massively hypothetical possibility.

With the Doncaster game it'd probably be harsh for a serious punishment, because it can be rescheduled. I think we'll get a 6pt deduction for the Brentford game, so EFL will probably release a statement and shove Doncaster in the statement so it looks like 3 points each game.

Think he's just finding something to moan about, and no one is taking to it kindly seeing as it's the first time in 18 months we've actually had a reason to be happy/optimistic. Absolutely no need to stick the boot in, especially when everything is now sorted and the people responsible for the shit that happened have gone. We'll deal with the EFL punishments when they come and that should be the end. 

Not every bunch of fans wishing us the best a week ago and now crying because they didn't play us before last weekend so want us to go under again. 

Hypothetical though it may be, I think his argument is fair enough.

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10 minutes ago, Traf said:

Fuck off, you Kenapologistic Scouse cunt xx

you missed gobshite :D

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Don't really know what the alternative could have been. If we were allowed to postpone games with no points penalty that would allow us to have a team that can play competitively. But then we'd have teams coming up for games midweek, which they'd potentially complain about. Or that teams who play us in the congested period have an advantage.

We're better off playing and losing as it stands. If they take -3 for Donny, we need a win to break even. So it's through the EFL rules. 

Should we be punished for Brentford and Doncaster this season? Shouldn't the same offence result in the punishment being applied in the respective season or the following, whichever they choose. Not both in this year.

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12 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Hypothetical though it may be, I think his argument is fair enough.

I should add that the analogy he's chosen doesn't work, but the central point about the integrity of the competition I think is a fair one.

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18 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

What did you want the EFL to do? Stop us starting till the takeover was done. Would you want the clock to have started to our expulsion with Ken and Bassini in play? Would that have helped the takeover complete or hindered it?

The EFL are damned if they do and damned if they don't. In the end they were asked to put a deadline on it by admins and did so - which got it across the line. Perhaps that would have worked in late July but I suspect it might have made it worse. 

It’s not about what I want as a Bolton fan 

I’m just saying, I can see where he’s coming from 

I think the FA would want to de risk the whole situation by slapping us with a hefty deduction to deter any other club missing games for financial reasons 

Like I said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s -9points for both missed games (although only -9 this season) 

At that rate Bury would have been on something daft like -60 points but that’s irrelevant now 

Moving forward I doubt they will let clubs get the season started if they were in ours and Burys position, I bet in future, teams will be pulled out much sooner 

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29 minutes ago, Big E said:

you missed gobshite :D

I was being nice xx

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30 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

It’s not about what I want as a Bolton fan 

I’m just saying, I can see where he’s coming from 

I think the FA would want to de risk the whole situation by slapping us with a hefty deduction to deter any other club missing games for financial reasons 

Like I said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s -9points for both missed games (although only -9 this season) 

At that rate Bury would have been on something daft like -60 points but that’s irrelevant now 

Moving forward I doubt they will let clubs get the season started if they were in ours and Burys position, I bet in future, teams will be pulled out much sooner 

I'm sort of saying if the EFL believed takeover was close and by not letting us start the season it might damage takeover - what were they to do? Not from our point of view but theirs?

Bury is different. They had a CVA but couldn't prove they could pay it. So their viability was questioned and countdown eventually started.

Our viability was contingent on a takeover needing one signature - what were the options to the EFL? Stop us starting - but risk the whole thing collapsing? FV might have pulled out had we had the first 3 games postponed and suffered the requisite deductions....

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It’s all the EFL’s problem

Let them earn their money for once.

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the fact there are no rules in place is the biggest failing of the EFL in this whole sorry mess

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1 hour ago, Casino said:

the fact there are no rules in place is the biggest failing of the EFL in this whole sorry mess

See Section 5 - Fixtures, Rule 31 - Penalty for Non-Fulfilment of Fixture Obligations.

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I've read them previously

What does it say

What are the penalties 

When do they get applied

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5 minutes ago, Casino said:

I've read them previously

What does it say

What are the penalties 

When do they get applied

Any club failing to fulfil its fixture obligations …. shall be deemed guilty of misconduct ….

Section 8 then refers to Investigations & Disciplinary Proceedings.

So it's all suitably vague because it is dealing with a range of possibilities. The Brentford match disappeared into a Disciplinary Commission, and it is obvious that it really should have reported long before the season started. The circumstances were unusual, not least that the outcome of the match did not affect Brentford's position or our status (already relegated), but it needs to prevent such circumstances arising in future.

 

The Doncaster one was unilateral action without reference to the opponents or the league, so a recurrence must be avoided, Maybe a suspended deduction of 6 points to be implemented if a further misconduct arose this season could be appropriate?

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For what it is worth I have some sympathy for the position the EFL find themselves in.

When it was formed all that it was really about was the organisation of the league pyramid structure and organising fixture lists.

It set out basic rules to give everything structure and a basis for all to work to and generally speaking until the last half dozen years as worked well enough for most.

The problems that are being highlighted now is that it real isn't able to say who should and shouldn't be able to own and control the varies multimillion pound companies that have teams playing in the leagues.

If company law doesn't preclude the company owners from owning the clubs in the first place then what rights have the EFL to prohibit them from taking part in the league?

It really isn't the EFL responsibility who owns a club, their reason for being is to ensure the league structure works and is maintained each year.

Take the case of Bury last season, the then owner Mr Day's financial empire collapsed and it would have killed Bury as a club if it wasn't sold on urgently, which is was for £1 to Dale.

What should the EFL done, say no chance mate and watch the club die midseason or take a chance on the new owner?

Bolton's patron sold the club to Holdsworth, who clearly had no money and was clearly actively in the company of undesirable persons and brought in Ken Anderson - what should the EFL have done?  Holdsworth was a FPP after all - and he was the one that did us the most damage in my opinion by taking out the BM loan against the club and charging us eyewatering interest with no intent to pay it back himself and expecting Anderson to put his money into the club even though he himself hadn't - and had non to give!  No wonder it went bad right from the start.

Clearly Davies couldn't find anybody better to sell to  - don't forget Trevor Birch was championing the ST as the next best option (and look how they turned out!), so should the EFL at that point say, sorry, you're out of the league until you sort yourselves out - and when you have you can restart at level 27 or whatever they decided? 

Should they have done exactly that with us and Bury at the start of the season and not let us play any games, even though everyone was led to believe a full takeover was only a day or so away at the time?

It's easy for everyone and their dog to take issue with the EFL but carpetbagging ownership issues are not what they are set up to be dealing with.

I can understand them wanting to not issue hard and fast guidelines but to allow themselves flexibility and manoeuvrability to interpret their own rules and regs to keep the league structures going and give them wriggle room to deal with various different situations as and when they crop up.

If the boot was on the other foot and we'd done nothing wrong but got relegated to a club who had a 5-0 win over a bunch of kids and thus beat us on goal difference by one goal, we would be mightily pissed wouldn't we?

Would we rather that club who fielded the kids because of the shitstorm they were in have not been allowed to start the season (even though everyone thought the sale was only two days off) probably so!  Don't forget it is in the interests of the other clubs have us chucked out of the league as it gives them a better chance of staying up!

There's no 'one size fits all' applying of the rules that works unless you really want a mass cull of the clubs in the various leagues - I'm sure Bury and ourselves are not just isolated occurrences.

I have no solution to the problems that the EFL face but it wasn't them that let Anderson into the club (Davies selling to penniless Holdsworth in effect did that) and it is more than likely the EFL bent over backwards to save us - but could not manage to do the same with Dale refusing to sell the club (and with his highly dodgy CVA that no one was willing to touch!).

People seem to like a blame culture these days so obviously everything must be the EFL's fault.  

I don't think it really is and more likely there's more likely to have clubs in financial trouble and people out there in the real world who have spied a way to exploit this.

Thankfully with the help of FV, James and EDT we got off the hook and lived to tell the tale.

Poor Bury wasn't quite so lucky though.

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1 hour ago, Sluffy said:

Bolton's patron sold the club to Holdsworth, who clearly had no money and was clearly actively in the company of undesirable persons and brought in Ken Anderson - what should the EFL have done?

I wonder if the rumours are true that:

- the EFL recommended KA to DH after his initial backer pulled out

- Shaun Harvey was meant to have his EFL leaving do one of Anderson's restaurants 

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1 hour ago, ZicoKelly said:

I wonder if the rumours are true that:

- the EFL recommended KA to DH after his initial backer pulled out

- Shaun Harvey was meant to have his EFL leaving do one of Anderson's restaurants 

I’m sure the second point was confirmed. Understandable now we know they liked a smooch

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11 hours ago, MalcolmW said:

Any club failing to fulfil its fixture obligations …. shall be deemed guilty of misconduct ….

Section 8 then refers to Investigations & Disciplinary Proceedings.

So it's all suitably vague because it is dealing with a range of possibilities. The Brentford match disappeared into a Disciplinary Commission, and it is obvious that it really should have reported long before the season started. The circumstances were unusual, not least that the outcome of the match did not affect Brentford's position or our status (already relegated), but it needs to prevent such circumstances arising in future.

 

The Doncaster one was unilateral action without reference to the opponents or the league, so a recurrence must be avoided, Maybe a suspended deduction of 6 points to be implemented if a further misconduct arose this season could be appropriate?

Can't see how the EFL won't impose a points deduction for the Donny game. By playing the other games it moved into the same realm as the 'boro game from few years ago.

They could impose extra for the Brentford game as the carry over to next season is same principle as an admin -12 being carried over if doesn't affect current season 

Not saying either would be "fair" but would follow previous precedent and for EFLs perspective be deterrent to others.

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Isn't the EFL a membership - based organisation - a "private club" if you will - that answers to it's members and sets out it's code of practice etc based on what the members agree upon like a golf club or business club? If so can't they set their own rules - that have to conform to British law but don't necessarily reflect the same laws as the broader society? That would give them a degree of discretion when it comes down to deciding who can or can't be members - or owners - and what criteria they have to fill to qualify in the same way that any private club can set criteria and determine the admission fee.

On another note, is their any sort of deadline for the EFL penalising us? Telling us what it is so we can get on and deal with it is definitely in our interest rather than having it dumped on us at a later date or even another season.

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