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FV Ownership Model

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The supporters trust trying to pretend they saved the day is the most predictable thing since Bassini's claims of exposing massive collusion and wrong doing all just mysteriously vanished....

Edited by bwfcfan5

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They've also claimed the credit for the £20 match ticket price.

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2 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The supporters trust trying to pretend they saved the day is the most predictable thing since Bassini's claims of exposing massive collusion and wrong doing all just ....

Its still not entirely clear that Bassini's claims have 'mysteriously vanished' but what's mysteriously appeared is ownership/control of BWFC at a massive discount by folks nobody had previously heard of with no apparent prior interest in BWFC or footie at all. Not  arguing for Bassini, heaven forbid, or against FV; just drawing attention to circumstances that seem to have largely escaped comment.

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49 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

... what's mysteriously appeared is ownership/control of BWFC at a massive discount by folks nobody had previously heard of with no apparent prior interest in BWFC or footie at all.

And there was me thinking that FV bought the club at the agreed price i.e. it's actual as opposed to theoretical value.

Curious to know how you got the information about who had or hadn't heard of them and what their level of interest in footie is. Have you known them long?

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1 hour ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Its still not entirely clear that Bassini's claims have 'mysteriously vanished' but what's mysteriously appeared is ownership/control of BWFC at a massive discount by folks nobody had previously heard of with no apparent prior interest in BWFC or footie at all. Not  arguing for Bassini, heaven forbid, or against FV; just drawing attention to circumstances that seem to have largely escaped comment.

Hang on - when he last appeared at the stadium Bassini said he would release a cavalcade of information proving various parties to be corrupt within 5 days....

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3 hours ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Its still not entirely clear that Bassini's claims have 'mysteriously vanished' but what's mysteriously appeared is ownership/control of BWFC at a massive discount by folks nobody had previously heard of with no apparent prior interest in BWFC or footie at all. Not  arguing for Bassini, heaven forbid, or against FV; just drawing attention to circumstances that seem to have largely escaped comment.

I think most had heard of michael james

Even if most wouldn't know him if they parked on his car parks

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20 minutes ago, Casino said:

I think most had heard of michael james

Even if most wouldn't know him if they parked on his car parks

I think Chris was making the more general point as to those who are in the FV Consortium as whole.

It seems from what we know (I don't think all the names have yet formally come out yet Tim Murphy for instance?) that apart from James (and EDT/Fildraw who has recently registered a charge on FV for security of their outstanding debt on BWFAC/BL) no one knows much about them (Mason apart in terms of him being in Floyd) and non of them seem to have any link to either Bolton, or a financial interest in football in the past (Basran was linked to one but he is no longer a part of the consortium).

It is a reasonable point to note imo, particularly if it is true what you shared with us some days ago that James doesn't personally want to be involved with the running of the club (his security is registered on the hotel as a like for like position prior to the Administration.

I don't doubt for a second the consortium is looking to obtain a return on their investment (repayable in three years) and that isn't likely to be achieved from football alone.

I don't however view anything sinister in this.

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2 hours ago, Hoppy510 said:

And there was me thinking that FV bought the club at the agreed price i.e. it's actual as opposed to theoretical value.

Curious to know how you got the information about who had or hadn't heard of them and what their level of interest in footie is. Have you known them long?

The club was put out to tender.

There was no agreed price.

The winning tenderer simply met all the terms and conditions set by the Administrator and was the largest bid received.

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Is it not the case that most football clubs are bought by people or consortia that few have ever heard of and have previously had little to do with football?

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51 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Is it not the case that most football clubs are bought by people or consortia that few have ever heard of and have previously had little to do with football?

I would not know but I'd be delighted to read your detailed research as to that being the case, or are you merely stating your supposition on the matter?

Surely not?

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26 minutes ago, Sluffy said:

I would not know but I'd be delighted to read your detailed research as to that being the case, or are you merely stating your supposition on the matter?

Surely not?

For prem clubs I guess there's probably a high proportion. Obvious not heard ofs being Abramovich, Glazers, maybe liverpool if you don't follow baseball, that fella at Arsenal. Never heard of the consortium behind villa or wolves. 

A few don't have a clue who owns them like spurs, Southampton, Burnley so maybe can be put into the category above based on that 

Obvious ones Newcastle and Norwich 

This isn't scientific research and just thinking off the top of my head 

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1 hour ago, RoadRunnerFan said:

Who had heard of Eddie Davies before he started tipping up cash? 

Me. 

I dismantled my kettle as a young lad and saw "Eddie waz here bwfc ok" on the thermostat. 

 

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11 hours ago, RoadRunnerFan said:

Who had heard of Eddie Davies before he started tipping up cash? 

Comparisons with Eddie Davies, Abramovich and Glazers etc are naive at best but I have a simple question for you. Since BWFC had  allegedly been run into the ground by a rogue chairman, did it not ring any alarm bells with you when the debts reported by the administrators were £millions less than those reported by the auditors two years previously? You are, I understand, a qualified accountant with getting on for nearly three thousand contributions to WW, so why did you say nothing?

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24 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Comparisons with Eddie Davies, Abramovich and Glazers etc are naive at best but I have a simple question for you. Since BWFC had  allegedly been run into the ground by a rogue chairman, did it not ring any alarm bells with you when the debts reported by the administrators were £millions less than those reported by the auditors two years previously? You are, I understand, a qualified accountant with getting on for nearly three thousand contributions to WW, so why did you say nothing?

The comparison I make is that people who own clubs aren't always people you've heard of, nothing more. So I don't see how that's naive.

Id always said I was keeping an open mind until I saw the accounts. They never came. 

Also I feel you have been rather creative in accounting for my post count. Its much nearer 2 thousand than 3 thousand, across a wide range of topics over six years so hardly prolific.

Certainly much less prolific than yourself with over 750 posts, almost exclusively on threads involving club finances and ownership, in less than a year. 

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4 minutes ago, RoadRunnerFan said:

The comparison I make is that people who own clubs aren't always people you've heard of, nothing more. So I don't see how that's naive.

Id always said I was keeping an open mind until I saw the accounts. They never came. 

Also I feel you have been rather creative in accounting for my post count. Its much nearer 2 thousand than 3 thousand, across a wide range of topics over six years so hardly prolific.

Certainly much less prolific than yourself with over 750 posts, almost exclusively on threads involving club finances and ownership, in less than a year. 

If you can't see how naive it is to compare a man who spent his formative years on the terraces at Burnden Park watching Nat Lofthouse, Tommy Banks and Eddie Hopkinson and later went on to spend the neck end of £200m on the club he loved to bits with the  new owners of BWFC you are to be pitied.

Open mind until you saw the accounts? Yes, of course, and my other leg has bells on.

Now I have to admit that my eyesight is not what it once was and in the feint typescript of the number count I misread a 3 as a 9.  Please accept my apologies.

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9 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

If you can't see how naive it is to compare a man who spent his formative years on the terraces at Burnden Park watching Nat Lofthouse, Tommy Banks and Eddie Hopkinson and later went on to spend the neck end of £200m on the club he loved to bits with the  new owners of BWFC you are to be pitied.

Open mind until you saw the accounts? Yes, of course, and my other leg has bells on.

Now I have to admit that my eyesight is not what it once was and in the feint typescript of the number count I misread a 3 as a 9.  Please accept my apologies.

The key point on my remark on Davies is 'at the time.' 

You won't find any posts of mine accusing Anderson of anything. For some reason you seem to have me down as part of some lynch mob despite a total lack of evidence, maybe it's mistaken identity or your failing eyesight.

Can we leave it at that? It really is dull for other readers. 

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17 hours ago, Casino said:

I think most had heard of michael james

Even if most wouldn't know him if they parked on his car parks

I would. I first met him 26 years ago at Burnden Park and he looks much the same now apart from his hair being grey.

MJ has had to wear two hats through all this whilst having to put up with the snipes of the ST peabrains and the snidey observations of Iles of the Beeno. I take my hat off to him. He's handled it all exceptionally well so far as I can see

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1 hour ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Comparisons with Eddie Davies, Abramovich and Glazers etc are naive at best but I have a simple question for you. Since BWFC had  allegedly been run into the ground by a rogue chairman, did it not ring any alarm bells with you when the debts reported by the administrators were £millions less than those reported by the auditors two years previously? You are, I understand, a qualified accountant with getting on for nearly three thousand contributions to WW, so why did you say nothing?

Were they? Could you perhaps expand on this. Which auditors and what were the two amounts. I'm genuinely asking here - out of interest. 

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34 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Were they? Could you perhaps expand on this. Which auditors and what were the two amounts. I'm genuinely asking here - out of interest. 

The auditors were Cowgill Hollloway who confirmed that at 30 June 2017 the Burnden Leisure Group (BL) owed £43.7m, £38.4m due in one year and £5.3m due in more than one year. (i.e the same £43m mentioned a few months ago on Talksport by Simon Jordan)

In July 2019 the administrators of BL and BWFC reported total debts of £26.5m whilst the administrators of Bolton Whites Hotel reported total debts  of £7.7m (£5.5m to PBP, £1.2m inter-company debt and £1m other creditors.)

These bald figures on their own should have been enough to set alarm bells ringing. How come the debts had gone down, if a rogue chairman supported by the EFL had been running the club into the ground? It was a hypothesis broadcast far and wide with barely any questioning as to whether the allegations were true or false.

Explanation of all the figures is somewhat involved but it essentially boils down to the fact that Ken Anderson had not succeeded in achieving the virtually impossible task of making BWFC profitable but he had succeeded in substantially reducing the losses in the hope that the club would be more saleable. In the end that proved impossible and FV subsquently took over with both secured and unsecured creditors taking a scalping. They now have assets at a massive discount and could conceivably flip it at a substantial profit should someone else turn up with deep pockets and an overwhelming desire to own a football club with a nice ground, hotel and maybe some development prospects.

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13 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

The auditors were Cowgill Hollloway who confirmed that at 30 June 2017 the Burnden Leisure Group (BL) owed £43.7m, £38.4m due in one year and £5.3m due in more than one year. (i.e the same £43m mentioned a few months ago on Talksport by Simon Jordan)

In July 2019 the administrators of BL and BWFC reported total debts of £26.5m whilst the administrators of Bolton Whites Hotel reported total debts  of £7.7m (£5.5m to PBP, £1.2m inter-company debt and £1m other creditors.)

These bald figures on their own should have been enough to set alarm bells ringing. How come the debts had gone down, if a rogue chairman supported by the EFL had been running the club into the ground? It was a hypothesis broadcast far and wide with barely any questioning as to whether the allegations were true or false.

Explanation of all the figures is somewhat involved but it essentially boils down to the fact that Ken Anderson had not succeeded in achieving the virtually impossible task of making BWFC profitable but he had succeeded in substantially reducing the losses in the hope that the club would be more saleable. In the end that proved impossible and FV subsquently took over with both secured and unsecured creditors taking a scalping. They now have assets at a massive discount and could conceivably flip it at a substantial profit should someone else turn up with deep pockets and an overwhelming desire to own a football club with a nice ground, hotel and maybe some development prospects.

Both Ken and EDT claimed they were owed 7M more than the debt reported by the administrators. Is that £14.5-15M the missing amount?

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Just now, bwfcfan5 said:

Both Ken and EDT claimed they were owed 7M more than the debt reported by the administrators. Is that £14.5-15M the missing amount?

Not exactly. I believe that £7m was actually £7.5m but it was the same £7.5m. It was owed to KA who owed it to EDT but the administrators left most of it out, including only £1.6m for KA.

KA was never going to stand for that and so you had the two administrator scenario which only complicated matters further. Not to mention ratcheting up the admin costs.

The deferred income figures included in the £43m are also part of the explanation but lets not get too deep into the accountancy woods or we might easily lose the light of day.

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Christopher, if the debt was reduced from one year to the next, does that not say that we were profitable, albeit with no cash?

Sorry, I'm only skimming your post 

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3 minutes ago, Casino said:

Christopher, if the debt was reduced from one year to the next, does that not say that we were profitable, albeit with no cash?

Sorry, I'm only skimming your post 

As Chris doesn't seem to be about then permit me to answer.

You can be trading at a loss but if you persuade creditors to write down/off a debt you owe to them (and the debt is greater than your trading loss), then yes, you would show a profit on your accounts for that period.

This actually happened in the accounts up to the 30th June 2017 when Eddie wrote off the bulk of his debt in the club which even though the club was continuing to trade at a loss of something like £12m or so at the time, showed a book profit of £190m or so for the year.

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