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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

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2 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Thanks, Kent, really helpful 

Sorry if it sounded a bit brutal. Sometimes I think people think it's like on Casualty. It's rarely a good outcome. 

Very different if it's a 20 year old who collapses on a night out than a 78 year old with coronavirus in hospital. The former I'd be jumping up and down on till the paramedics arrived.

These decisions are always made with compassion in mind. Honestly.

And that's coming from someone who has to be part of the team that's breaking the news to the patient and their family.

If a Consultant or a Doctor tells you that they think a DNACPR is in the best interests of you or a loved one. I'd implore you all to listen to them.

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7 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Great - and the people who have had CPR and are thriving are a testament to the skill of the resus team and an appropriate decision by the resus team to attempt CPR.

They could have chosen not to if they considered it to be futile. That's worth remembering. No patient can insist that a medical team attempt CPR.

And no - I'd choose life everytime. But I'd also choose not spending my final moments with strangers jumping up and down on my chest and giving me a punctured lung.

These strangers, are they enthusiastic young female nurses bouncing around on top of me?

If so, where do I sign up?

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6 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Great - and the people who have had CPR and are thriving are a testament to the skill of the resus team and an appropriate decision by the resus team to attempt CPR.

They could have chosen not to if they considered it to be futile. That's worth remembering. No patient can insist that a medical team attempt CPR.

And no - I'd choose life everytime. But I'd also choose not spending my final moments with strangers jumping up and down on my chest and giving me a punctured lung.

But those decisions are made at the time and not at the initial attendance which it seems this form would dictate. Can you see the difference here?

 

Glad you’d choose life, you make informative and entertaining posts 😃

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44 minutes ago, Morizio said:

Article 2. Right to life.

Asking vulnerable people to sign one of these is reprehensible. 

You still don’t get my point 

I understand a right to life, but not if it puts another persons life in a significant risk then it’s not clear cut is it. One persons right to life doesn’t Trump the others, health worker or not 

Anyway, my point was based on mouth to mouth, which apparently doesn’t happen, so it’s irrelevant.

Kent (a nurse) has also explained further about the DNAR 

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17 minutes ago, bolton_blondie said:

Its true. Obviously will go to hospital for other reasons if needed. 

Which equates to leaving the virus in that area and risk of infecting all the others. Yes I understand that the virus moves with the host but this to me is a step closer to the Chinese welding the doors closed on buildings. 

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1 minute ago, birch-chorley said:

You still don’t get my point 

I understand a right to life, but not if it puts another persons life in a significant risk then it’s not clear cut is it. One persons right to life doesn’t Trump the others, health worker or not 

Anyway, my point was based on mouth to mouth, which apparently doesn’t happen, so it’s irrelevant.

Kent (a nurse) has also explained further about the DNAR 

Correct I don’t understand you. It seems though that your point is redundant though. 

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Just now, Morizio said:

But those decisions are made at the time and not at the initial attendance which it seems this form would dictate. Can you see the difference here?

 

Glad you’d choose life, you make informative and entertaining posts 😃

The difference is if you make that decision - you're in control. Your family have the chance to come to terms with it and the medical team don't have to live with the guilt of beating you up.

And a DNACPR is constantly reviewed. If you're on the mend and are in the discharge lounge about to leave hospital - and THEN have a cardiac arrest - we'd be all over you :)

 

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4 minutes ago, Spider said:

These strangers, are they enthusiastic young female nurses bouncing around on top of me?

If so, where do I sign up?

I can't guarantee that - it might be me. And some of the female nurses are absolute shockers. Standards have slipped nowadays! :)

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1 minute ago, kent_white said:

I can't guarantee that - it might be me. And some of the female nurses are absolute shockers. Standards have slipped nowadays! :)

You’ve assumed I have any standards.

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1 minute ago, kent_white said:

The difference is if you make that decision - you're in control. Your family have the chance to come to terms with it and the medical team don't have to live with the guilt of beating you up.

And a DNACPR is constantly reviewed. If you're on the mend and are in the discharge lounge about to leave hospital - and THEN have a cardiac arrest - we'd be all over you :)

 

Which again comes back to the being able to make an informed decision. Vulnerability is massive with this. 
 

I agree with the stages being constantly reviewed but maintain my position that asking someone on arrival to sign one of these forms is reprehensible. 
 

As I’ve already stated before where consent can be freely given it should be a given that it can freely be withdrawn. What safeguards are in place to ensure that?

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31 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

He’s a quite a strange person

Totally hates the Tories, even if it turns out not to be their fault that the Chinese let this disease free.

Each to their own

You seem to hate the Labour Party 

If I remember correctly you didn’t really let up on Gordon Brown et al following the 2008 financial crash that came from the US sub prime housing market collapse 

For the record, I didn’t blame Labour for the crash and I won’t blame the Conservatives for Corona Virus 

You may have had concerns with the way Labour dealt with 2008, just as many now have concerns with the Conservative governments approach - they are just opinions at the end of the day, we are all entitled to them 

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3 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I can't guarantee that - it might be me. And some of the female nurses are absolute shockers. Standards have slipped nowadays! :)

I never had any lookers caring for me! Always felt short changed when I’ve seen some really hot nurses. 

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1 minute ago, Big E said:

@kent_whiteas an Asthmatic would i be unlikely to be worked on if i had complications? finding all this quite interesting. 

 

I can't say pal. It would be a Consultant making that decision. But it would depend on a lot of other factors as well. How well you were overall being the most important - and what your chances of having a good outcome were. I wouldn't say asthma would be an automatic DNACPR by a long shot. 

Also interestingly, if a nurse finds a patient and the patient doesn't have a DNACPR - we'd duty bound to start CPR. Even if that patient had clearly been dead for a long period of time.

Nurses have been struck off for not attempting CPR on patients who have been dead for over 8 hours.

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3 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I can't say pal. It would be a Consultant making that decision. But it would depend on a lot of other factors as well. How well you were overall being the most important - and what your chances of having a good outcome were. I wouldn't say asthma would be an automatic DNACPR by a long shot. 

Also interestingly, if a nurse finds a patient and the patient doesn't have a DNACPR - we'd duty bound to start CPR. Even if that patient had clearly been dead for a long period of time.

Nurses have been struck off for not attempting CPR on patients who have been dead for over 8 hours.

Thanks. This last week seems to be introducing me to my own mortality and so i am finding it interesting. 

I always had problems with my asthma when it was cold and it turned out i was on the wrong treatment. not had any issues since but i am obviously intrigued with it regarding coronavirus

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4 minutes ago, Morizio said:

Which again comes back to the being able to make an informed decision. Vulnerability is massive with this. 
 

I agree with the stages being constantly reviewed but maintain my position that asking someone on arrival to sign one of these forms is reprehensible. 
 

As I’ve already stated before where consent can be freely given it should be a given that it can freely be withdrawn. What safeguards are in place to ensure that?

If I've understood it correctly - it's people being asked to consider a DNACPR on admission while they still have the capacity to make the decision.

Even if they choose not to sign the DNACPR - the medical team (Dr's and Consultants - not Nurses) can decide not to attempt CPR if they don't think it's in the patient's best interests. They usually will though - even if it's a bad idea - just because that's human nature. And that's where the tragedies set it. People dying in pain a few hours later because they've been inappropriately ressucitated. The staff need to live with the consequences too.

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1 minute ago, Big E said:

Thanks. This last week seems to be introducing me to my own mortality and so i am finding it interesting. 

I always had problems with my asthma when it was cold and it turned out i was on the wrong treatment. not had any issues since but i am obviously intrigued with it regarding coronavirus

I think the biggest risk is people who have severe asthma and need frequent visits to hospital and steroids etc. And even then there's hope. They'd prioritise an asthma patient with a good prognosis over someone without asthma with a bad prognosis any day of the week.

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30 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

Wait for what exactly before doing what?

In that we need to assess what happened when this is over, I’m assuming the government are doing the best they can right now, but inevitably we will find out some things could of been done better, it has to be factored in that no one knows the scale of what’s coming and that presents logistical problems.  

Our government have already given unprecedented levels of financial assistance to business and workers, built new hospitals up and down the country, mobilised the armed forces, delivered millions and millions of PPE, are trying to get more ventilators are asking U.K. businesses to help develop new designs and deliver them quickly and all this and much more in less than 1 month. 

I’m in no doubt there will be an inquest when this is over and that inquest will highlights failings ( no government is perfect) but also massive successes,  it’s findings can only help us if this ever happens again. 

Edited by Mounts Kipper
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I still think the government response has been pretty good. Not perfect but could have been a damned sight worse. I'd go 7/10 at the moment.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that the NHS would have been able to do a better job if it hadn't been underfunded for the past decade. But that's not the fault of this government directly.

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25 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

You seem to hate the Labour Party 

If I remember correctly you didn’t really let up on Gordon Brown et al following the 2008 financial crash that came from the US sub prime housing market collapse 

For the record, I didn’t blame Labour for the crash and I won’t blame the Conservatives for Corona Virus 

You may have had concerns with the way Labour dealt with 2008, just as many now have concerns with the Conservative governments approach - they are just opinions at the end of the day, we are all entitled to them 

Too right.

As I say, each to their own.

I said that we were particularly vulnerable to the financial crash, because of Gordon Brown's spending, which still feels OK. I also think he did what was needed at the time to help us, and others, out of it.

Do I hate the Labour Party? I don't think so. I do detest socialism because of the effects on people's lives.

The wash up after this will be interesting. I hope it is truthful and considered, rather than screechy and mercilessly, needlessly, hateful.

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1 minute ago, Mounts Kipper said:

They all worked for Benny Hill. 😂

Nurses can't even wear short skirts and suspenders any longer. Being able to air my testicles in comfort was one of the main reasons I joined. It's political correctness gone mad! :)

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