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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

Equality in sport


Rudy

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1 minute ago, birch-chorley said:

Likewise a Black person cant relate to a white person when they talk about white privilege, what are they basing that on, assumptions? 

If we still have systemic racism in this country then it should be clear in the data. The fact Chinese and Indian British outperform white British in almost all the relevant data sets would indicate skin colour plays a much smaller role in performance.  

What do you think is the cause of all the "black on black" crime you keep talking about?

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12 minutes ago, Cheese said:

What do you think is the cause of all the "black on black" crime you keep talking about?

Clearly poverty is playing a part, but poverty isn’t being helped if half of the Black fathers are absent. 2 parents means 2 full time jobs (1 parent drops off, the other picks up). 1 parent means half a job (part time around school) 

Quote from David Lammy MP....

‘Tottenham Labour MP David Lammy said most young people who have stabbed someone to death come from single parent families.’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19815831

the fact that 50% of black kids have absent fathers means they have a much greater chance of being brought up in poverty, drop out of school, turn to crime, carry a knife, get stopped and searched, go to jail 

In the Indian and Chinese communities it’s 1%, their educational attainment, average earnings are way above that of both white and Black in the U.K. 

Skin colour or Culture? 

 

Edited by birch-chorley
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8 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Clearly poverty is playing a part, but poverty isn’t being helped if half of the Black fathers are absent. 2 parents means 2 full time jobs (1 parent drops off, the other picks up). 1 parent means half a job (part time around school) 

Quote from David Lammy MP....

‘Tottenham Labour MP David Lammy said most young people who have stabbed someone to death come from single parent families.’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19815831

the fact that 50% of black kids have absent fathers means they have a much greater chance of being brought up in poverty, drop out of school, turn to crime, carry a knife, get stopped and searched, go to jail 

In the Indian and Chinese communities it’s 1%, their educational attainment, average earnings are way above that of both white and Black in the U.K. 

Skin colour or Culture? 

 

So what do you think the cause is?

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1 minute ago, Cheese said:

So what do you think the cause is?

Culture within that community that makes it more acceptable for fathers to walk away, similar numbers in the USA & Caribbean and Africa. BLM are even campaigning to ‘disrupt the western prescribed nuclear family structure’ - Seems to me they are saying you don't need 2 parents bringing up a child, all the data would say otherwise (as would David Lammy and Barak Obama) 

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Indian and Chinese families came here at the same time, faced the same challenges of race yet only 1% of those fathers are absent. The results for those groups are fantastic 

If it’s systemic racism holding Black people back then how have the Chinese and Indian groups flourished so well in the same system? 

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19 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Culture within that community that makes it more acceptable for fathers to walk away, similar numbers in the USA & Caribbean and Africa

So, ignoring your whataboutery, what you're basically saying is "black people are shit parents because of their culture".

When you talk about "community" you do understand that you are part of that "community" don't you?

Edited by Cheese
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1 minute ago, Cheese said:

So, ignoring your whataboutery, you believe it's down to genetics?


Not sure comparing our Black community to our Indian and Chinese is ‘whataboutery’ when having a discussion about racial equality 

With regards genetics, not at all, completely the opposite in fact. I’ve said numerous times I think it’s nurture not nature. It’s all about different cultures rather than skin colour or genetics 

I think if you switched a load of British Chinese babies with a British Black babies and they were brought up by those respective families as normal then the Black babies would likely have 2 parents, more income, less issues with poverty, do much better at school and go on to earn more. The Chinese babies would see the opposite effect IMO, but that’s because I think it’s nothing to do with genetics 

Interesting where they break the data down Further. You can drill down to Black African vs Black Caribbean. Black African tend to do much better than Black Caribbean. Indian much better than Pakistani or Bangladeshi. Nothing to do with skin colour or genetics, all about culture and how you are raised (or not raised if your fathers fucked off) 

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8 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:


Not sure comparing our Black community to our Indian and Chinese is ‘whataboutery’ when having a discussion about racial equality 

With regards genetics, not at all, completely the opposite in fact. I’ve said numerous times I think it’s nurture not nature. It’s all about different cultures rather than skin colour or genetics 

I think if you switched a load of British Chinese babies with a British Black babies and they were brought up by those respective families as normal then the Black babies would likely have 2 parents, more income, less issues with poverty, do much better at school and go on to earn more. The Chinese babies would see the opposite effect IMO, but that’s because I think it’s nothing to do with genetics 

Interesting where they break the data down Further. You can drill down to Black African vs Black Caribbean. Black African tend to do much better than Black Caribbean. Indian much better than Pakistani or Bangladeshi. Nothing to do with skin colour or genetics, all about culture and how you are raised (or not raised if your fathers fucked off) 

Why do you think that is? What are the stats on white fathers fucking off? You seem a bit too awkwardly focused on non-white stats. As though being white is something to live up to.

Edited by Cheese
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8 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Why do you think that is? What are the stats on white fathers fucking off? You seem a bit too awkwardly focused on non-white stats. As though being white is something to live up to.

White Absent fathers are at about 15% from what I can see, educational attainment is miles worse than that of Chinese and Indian 

I think I’ve been quite clear that British Chinese and British Indian are top of the tree 

 

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13 minutes ago, Burndens Bogs said:

 Is it racist to be proud of being white these days?

 It seems ok for everyone else to be proud of their colour, so why not white folk?.

Not at all. It's only racist when you think you're superior because of your race.

I don't understand why anyone would be "proud" of being any colour. Don't understand why anyone would be proud of their nationality either, but each to their own.

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30 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

White Absent fathers are at about 15% from what I can see, educational attainment is miles worse than that of Chinese and Indian 

I think I’ve been quite clear that British Chinese and British Indian are top of the tree 

 

Why are you so determined to prove that white people are morally better than non-white people, but not willing to give your own hypotheses as to why you think that? Maybe I'm missing your point, but that's what I'm getting from this.

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3 hours ago, Burndens Bogs said:

 Is it racist to be proud of being white these days?

 It seems ok for everyone else to be proud of their colour, so why not white folk?.

I think it just has bad connotations. BNP, EDL etc. Historically white people have been the dominant race, so we don't need to bring extra attention to our culture, because white culture is already firmly established in everyday life.

Ethnic minorities are as such, minorities, and so being proud of their culture makes more sense because it is less "mainstream" and has faced more challenges and oppression to their culture than whites.

So I guess people are proud to be black or are proud of their black heritage because their ancestors have gone through especially tough times. It doesn't always have to do with skin colour though, Scots, Irish, even US people seem more proud of their culture because they've historically had to gain their own independence or freedoms. Whereas white Brits come from the largest colonial empire in history which has oppressed other cultures, even taken their sacred artefacts and put them in our own museums.

Edited by Mantra
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https://www.newsweek.com/absent-black-fathers-myth-racism-1509085

This is from an American POV but probably has some relevance to the UK too.

"...children generally have one legal address, which is particularly important for purposes of determining school districts. Most often, the legal address is the mother's. This is a major reason that fatherlessness statistics in general are overblown. Fathers' homes all too often are not counted officially as being "homes with children." (Also, some unmarried couples live together, making the marriage statistics even more misleading.)"

Edited by Mantra
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2 hours ago, Cheese said:

Why are you so determined to prove that white people are morally better than non-white people, but not willing to give your own hypotheses as to why you think that? Maybe I'm missing your point, but that's what I'm getting from this.

I'm more getting the impression that he doesn't believe there's any disadvantage to BAME people in modern British life (in the main institutions, healthcare, welfare, education) and so he doesn't think our system should be held accountable for the situations of the Black Community, when Indian/Chinese British are performing well despite also facing historic inequality.

However, https://www.gov.uk/government/news/asian-muslims-and-black-people-do-better-in-school-worse-in-work

This report from 2016, acknowledges the better school results but claims "Young people from black and Asian Muslims communities are more likely to be unemployed and face social immobility later in life than working class white boys despite doing better at school."

For me, it's not just as simple as saying, "Chinese/Asian Brits are doing fine, so why can't the Blacks?" because while they probably faced similar challenges there's bound to be differences in their race/culture's integration in Britain. I don't have research to back that up but perhaps there's something to do with why so much of the black community are concentrated in a small area of London.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest

If you go down to #3 on this page you can see that Asians are much more evenly spread across regions whereas Blacks are mostly in London and so maybe it's more a London problem than a Black problem?

If London was taken out of the equation maybe Black people would show to perform much better overall.

Edited by Mantra
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1 hour ago, Burndens Bogs said:

 Is it racist to be proud of being white these days?

 It seems ok for everyone else to be proud of their colour, so why not white folk?.

Wash yer mouth our with carbolic soap laddie.

Get with the programme. Whiteys are the devil and are to be blamed for absolutely everything which is wrong in the world.

Just look how Zimbabwe has prospered since they drove the evil imperialists out.

Do buck up.

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3 hours ago, bolty58 said:

Wash yer mouth our with carbolic soap laddie.

Get with the programme. Whiteys are the devil and are to be blamed for absolutely everything which is wrong in the world.

Just look how Zimbabwe has prospered since they drove the evil imperialists out.

Do buck up.

This post was brought to you with the cooperation of...

fagammon.png?itok=47sWkwI3

And the letters G, A and M.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQW1vc8y9npO1OO6zXnUd2

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6 hours ago, Mantra said:

https://www.newsweek.com/absent-black-fathers-myth-racism-1509085

This is from an American POV but probably has some relevance to the UK too.

"...children generally have one legal address, which is particularly important for purposes of determining school districts. Most often, the legal address is the mother's. This is a major reason that fatherlessness statistics in general are overblown. Fathers' homes all too often are not counted officially as being "homes with children." (Also, some unmarried couples live together, making the marriage statistics even more misleading.)"

If it’s a myth then why did Barack Obama say this in 2008....

“Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said, to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”

Mr. Obama noted that “more than half of all black children live in single-parent households,” a number that he said had doubled since his own childhood.

On the campaign trail, Mr. Obama has frequently returned to the topic of parenting and personal responsibility, particularly for low-income African American families. 

The last bit is key for me, personal responsibility, how much is down to inequality in the system and how much could be changed with a cultural shift in that community? I’m not hearing much if any personal responsibility, it’s all the systems fault. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html

 

 

Edited by birch-chorley
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7 hours ago, Mantra said:

I'm more getting the impression that he doesn't believe there's any disadvantage to BAME people in modern British life (in the main institutions, healthcare, welfare, education) and so he doesn't think our system should be held accountable for the situations of the Black Community, when Indian/Chinese British are performing well despite also facing historic inequality.

However, https://www.gov.uk/government/news/asian-muslims-and-black-people-do-better-in-school-worse-in-work

This report from 2016, acknowledges the better school results but claims "Young people from black and Asian Muslims communities are more likely to be unemployed and face social immobility later in life than working class white boys despite doing better at school."

For me, it's not just as simple as saying, "Chinese/Asian Brits are doing fine, so why can't the Blacks?" because while they probably faced similar challenges there's bound to be differences in their race/culture's integration in Britain. I don't have research to back that up but perhaps there's something to do with why so much of the black community are concentrated in a small area of London.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest

If you go down to #3 on this page you can see that Asians are much more evenly spread across regions whereas Blacks are mostly in London and so maybe it's more a London problem than a Black problem?

If London was taken out of the equation maybe Black people would show to perform much better overall.

Thanks for that, your first paragraph nails the point that I’m trying to make. If the system was rigged in favour of white peoples then you would expect to see white people topping the data tables in all areas. The trend tends to have yellow (Chinese) and Brown (Indian) people topping the charts which would indicate skin colour isn’t the key factor that dictates success or failure in the U.K. the Culture your brought up and the parenting you receive is

The worst group in all the data are also in fact white, gypsies do appallingly in all the data, much worse than Black from education, through average earnings and onto health / life expectancy. Surely if the system is rigged around a simple thing like skin colour then this wouldn’t be the case? 

Your right, British Asian Muslims struggle in a lot of the data, they perform much worse than British Asian Indians who share the same skin colour as them (and a lot of DNA). Surely indicating another tick in the box for cultural difference over systemic issues around skin colour? 

I think your bang on about Geographical spread, it’s doing the Black community no good that they are centred around a small part of London (80%of them). Given half of them weren’t born here and have emigrated here in the last 20 years we’ve missed a trick. As part of the emigration process we could and should have (IMO) made it compulsory for them to live in the regions for at least X years. Australia and Canada do something similar, my uncle had to move to Saskatoon in the Canadian outback. 

Perhaps we should do that moving forward. If we get a better Geographical spread then it will certainly help integration 

Edited by birch-chorley
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6 hours ago, Cheese said:

Why are you so determined to prove that white people are morally better than non-white people, but not willing to give your own hypotheses as to why you think that? Maybe I'm missing your point, but that's what I'm getting from this.

I’m not saying White British people are morally better, in fact I’m saying skin colour has nothing to do with it, that’s the whole point 

In the data white British are average, likely down to the weighting of them making up 85% of the population 

Within the non white communities some do really well (Indian & Chinese), others not so (Black Caribbean & Bangladeshi). Again indicating that skin colour isn’t the determining factor in success 

Clearly cultural differences play a much bigger part in this, lots of evidence within the data of two groups with the same skin colour that are seeing vastly different results? (White v white gypsies, Asian Muslims v Asian Indians, Black Caribbean vs Black African) 

Within the Black community, particularly Black Caribbean, you have a culture of absentee fathers reaching levels of above 50%. That’s making their children poorer and more likely to perform poorly at school and turn to crime. Nowhere near as poorly as white gypsies might I add, which again rules out skin colour as the determining factor of success 

 

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13 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Depends if you've been staring at the window for ages I suppose. I would imagine a concerned staff member or maybe a member of the public reported it?

I stared into a jeweller’s window in Preston for ages looking at a Breitling (sp?j watch that had a £29,000 price tag. I wonder if the jeweller feared that I was casing the joint or just another person looking at something he probably wouldn’t buy even if he won a few million on the lottery.

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37 minutes ago, MickyD said:

I stared into a jeweller’s window in Preston for ages looking at a Breitling (sp?j watch that had a £29,000 price tag. I wonder if the jeweller feared that I was casing the joint or just another person looking at something he probably wouldn’t buy even if he won a few million on the lottery.

Don't know, and not the point. Someone was obviously concerned enough to call the police. Irrespective of that person's motives, the police are going to at least check it out.

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