bgoefc Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Exactly why we need a knock out football manager. Fuck blooding youngsters and picking stars based on name only. Pick a team to win the game there and then. Who would've been better playing behind Jamie Vardy in the last few games? The unfashionable Danny Drinkwater who has played behind him all season and knows his runs inside and out? Or the fashionable land crab Jack wilshire who couldn't pass wind? We need to go into a tournament to win games not play a certain way and pick wankers. Thats why I'd give BSA a two year contract. Sort the defence and put in two defensive midfielders in front of em. Fuck full backs who can't defend but think they are wingers. Concede 2 goals in a knockout game and you normally lose. We would have a settled side who knew their fucking job in the team. Then you can let flair players do their thing and a battering ram like Carroll sat on the bench for plan B or even holding up the ball which Kane couldn't do.
madthatter Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Genuine question: Do folk think we have, as a general rule, under-performed in the last 50 years or are just a bit shitter than we all wish? I think we have had decent sides over that time; that with a bit more luck (and better penalties) could have given us at least one Euro and maybe one or two more stars on top of the 3 lions. Which wouldn't be a bad haul really. In general though we always look sluggish, less technical and less creative than the 'better' sides. Our players seem to lack the nous to beat teams in KO football. You watch any of the good uns and they are mentally so much better. I don't see Italy, Germany or Spain etc loosing that Iceland game once the pen goes in, as an example. I am 'beginning' to think that it's the latter. Certainly as far as mental strength goes. I do wonder how much of that has developed over time though and is a kind of anvil that now goes with playing for England? Putting that shirt on seems to make quality players turn into Sunday league players . . . somethings not right! I'd be the first to back fat Sam but you know what would happen: One bad result or after a few punts up to Andy Carroll and the press say "We are going back to the stone age . . ." Sam's hounded in the press and sacked soon after when he refuses to arse lick the players or journos. The FA keep quoting this St George's centre and talking up the new style and technical development of younger players. I hope that's true and it all sounds good but fook me, watching England is, let's be honest, a bit of a joke now! Should it be though?
bgoefc Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Genuine question: Do folk think we have, as a general rule, under-performed in the last 50 years or are just a bit shitter than we all wish? I think we have had decent sides over that time; that with a bit more luck (and better penalties) could have given us at least one Euro and maybe one or two more stars on top of the 3 lions. Which wouldn't be a bad haul really. In general though we always look sluggish, less technical and less creative than the 'better' sides. Our players seem to lack the nous to beat teams in KO football. You watch any of the good uns and they are mentally so much better. I don't see Italy, Germany or Spain etc loosing that Iceland game once the pen goes in, as an example. I am 'beginning' to think that it's the latter. Certainly as far as mental strength goes. I do wonder how much of that has developed over time though and is a kind of anvil that now goes with playing for England? Putting that shirt on seems to make quality players turn into Sunday league players . . . somethings not right! I'd be the first to back fat Sam but you know what would happen: One bad result or after a few punts up to Andy Carroll and the press say "We are going back to the stone age . . ." Sam's hounded in the press and sacked soon after when he refuses to arse lick the players or journos. The FA keep quoting this St George's centre and talking up the new style and technical development of younger players. I hope that's true and it all sounds good but fook me, watching England is, let's be honest, a bit of a joke now! Should it be though? Throughout my lifetime following England we have, following inglorious exits, been always building for the fucking future. It doesn't work. FFS I heard Pearce again on talksport saying we should appoint a manager for 3 world cups and leave in place no matter what results! That guy has got a complex about being sacked so often. You are right though we have been better. I believe that with a bit more luck in 1990, 1996 ,1998 and 2004 especially we could have got further. I think recently we don't have leaders or players who can think on the pitch. We need stronger characters who are not weak at the knees.
frank_spencer Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Had we gone down swinging against Germany/France etc I wouldn't be as arsed. But to go out with a whimper to Iceland is embarrassing for this England side. Very much like Bolton last season, nor being good enough I can take but lack of effort and basic technique is just shite. Edited July 1, 2016 by frank_spencer
madthatter Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Throughout my lifetime following England we have, following inglorious exits, been always building for the fucking future. It doesn't work. FFS I heard Pearce again on talksport saying we should appoint a manager for 3 world cups and leave in place no matter what results! That guy has got a complex about being sacked so often. You are right though we have been better. I believe that with a bit more luck in 1990, 1996 ,1998 and 2004 especially we could have got further. I think recently we don't have leaders or players who can think on the pitch. We need stronger characters who are not weak at the knees. That was clearly evident the other night! Thing is though that some of those players wouldn't have performed like that in a Champs league match, for instance. Why does it happen for England so often? Suppose they're surrounded by smarter thinking foreign types . . .
madthatter Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Had we gone down swinging against Germany/France etc I wouldn't be as arsed. But to go out with a whimper to Iceland is embarrassing for this England side. Very much like Bolton last season, nor being good enough I can take but lack of effort and basic technique is just shite. Aye. Very muck like watching Bolton at Bristol last year. Total embarrassment. You can, begrudgingly, understand Bolton players not giving a fcuk last year, not forgive mind, but understand why. Not the same with England though. Is the pressure/expectation too much for them? Why is it any different from top PL or Champs League games? could it be ££££ incentives or lack of? Just a thought
Ani Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 I am all for giving the players shit and they deserve for the performance on Monday, but the starting point has to be the culture and approach, after only 1 win ever just blaming the current players can not be the answer. We need a manager who is strong enough to pick the players he thinks are right to play to the system he is going to play. 3 successful European team, Spain, Italy and Germany, all three have played systems that before world cup we would have expected, I still have no idea what system we were trying to play. Once you have a system you pick players for that system, it is pretty simple, you pick the best player for each position, every payer who is picked knows their job and does it, if Wayne Rooney is nt fit enough or fast enough to play upfront the system does not change, and there is no system in world football that means that Wilshire and Rooney are left to run midfield. The closest we have come in recent years was Euro 96, if you look at the team that played Germany there is only player who has a squad number above 11, and that was because Gary Neville was suspended, we played a team and system that everyone knew and understood, their roles, and we were a goal post away from the final.
bgoefc Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 I am all for giving the players shit and they deserve for the performance on Monday, but the starting point has to be the culture and approach, after only 1 win ever just blaming the current players can not be the answer. We need a manager who is strong enough to pick the players he thinks are right to play to the system he is going to play. 3 successful European team, Spain, Italy and Germany, all three have played systems that before world cup we would have expected, I still have no idea what system we were trying to play. Once you have a system you pick players for that system, it is pretty simple, you pick the best player for each position, every payer who is picked knows their job and does it, if Wayne Rooney is nt fit enough or fast enough to play upfront the system does not change, and there is no system in world football that means that Wilshire and Rooney are left to run midfield. The closest we have come in recent years was Euro 96, if you look at the team that played Germany there is only player who has a squad number above 11, and that was because Gary Neville was suspended, we played a team and system that everyone knew and understood, their roles, and we were a goal post away from the final. That is what BSA would give us. I've heard a number of German pundits on Talksport and on TV pre tournament who simply cannot understand why we keep playing people out of position, they think the system comes first. They pick a system and then pick the best player in form for each position then if injured or suspended the replacement comes in.
madthatter Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 True, and I'm just playing Devils Dick here, but we didn't exactly get off to the best of starts iirc. Pretty dull draw with the Swiss, bit fortunate to beat the jocks but did turn it on against Holland. Lucky to beat Spain as well, we got an offside decision in our favour that day - had we not we may well have lost. Should have beat Germany though! Not really sure what I am getting at here other than perhaps noting that when we have done well luck has been on our side? The point about system is a good one though. I think Roy's problem was that he wanted to play in a certain 'style' but didn't seem to know how to pull it off. He also didn't seem to react to teams/events as they happened or if he did he made poor choices.
madthatter Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) I heard a discussion the other day on't wireless including an Italian pundit. He was basically saying that whilst Italy didn't have the best players at the tournament the manager had got them playing like a good club side. That speaks volumes to me. I think Venables had a similar thing with England at Euro 96. And I agree, Fat Sam would bring this to any team. As he has proved. Like him or not he gets success! Still don't think he would get the job in a million years, mind. Although I think the general perception of Sam in the media, probably since his time at Spam, has definitely improved. I think people see past the 'one dimensional long ball' lazy criticisms that used to come his way when at Bolton. Edited July 1, 2016 by madthatter
Site Supporter RONNIE PHILLIPS Posted July 1, 2016 Site Supporter Posted July 1, 2016 I said on here before the tournament started that I feared Hodgson had backed himself into a corner over Rooney & so it proved. Sacrificed the collective for one over the hill, out of position player, then compounded it with a half fit, vastly over rated Wilshire.
Marc505 Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 True, and I'm just playing Devils Dick here, but we didn't exactly get off to the best of starts iirc. Pretty dull draw with the Swiss, bit fortunate to beat the jocks but did turn it on against Holland. Lucky to beat Spain as well, we got an offside decision in our favour that day - had we not we may well have lost. Should have beat Germany though! Not really sure what I am getting at here other than perhaps noting that when we have done well luck has been on our side? The point about system is a good one though. I think Roy's problem was that he wanted to play in a certain 'style' but didn't seem to know how to pull it off. He also didn't seem to react to teams/events as they happened or if he did he made poor choices. Give the book "When Football Came Home" by Michael Gibbons a try (painfully cliched title i know) Read it on holiday in France last month and it really gives a good insight into the team and how it was built and developed. Also shows up how lucky we were to get past Spain. Didn't make a single sub against Germany in the semi, not bringing on an extra penalty taker or two deep in extra time seems to be one of Venables' regrets.
madthatter Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Will keep a look out, cheers! Hoddle on the other hand . . . wasn't he infamous for not even practising penalties?!
QFPants Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 I heard a discussion the other day on't wireless including an Italian pundit. He was basically saying that whilst Italy didn't have the best players at the tournament the manager had got them playing like a good club side. Their keeper and entire defence play for Juve to be fair; they are a good club side. Makes a massive difference
Marc505 Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Will keep a look out, cheers! Hoddle on the other hand . . . wasn't he infamous for not even practising penalties?! I didn't know that! Can't believe any post 96 England manager wouldn't have their players practising penalties!
gonzo Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 I said on here before the tournament started that I feared Hodgson had backed himself into a corner over Rooney & so it proved. Sacrificed the collective for one over the hill, out of position player, then compounded it with a half fit, vastly over rated Wilshire. Rooney was our best player. He faded in the last game massively but before that he was the least of our worries. He's exactly what we needed. It's the rest that fucked it up.
BOWTUN BAKED Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Rooney was our best player. He faded in the last game massively but before that he was the least of our worries. He's exactly what we needed. It's the rest that fucked it up. Should've gone to Specsavers!
gonzo Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 Should've gone to Specsavers! Can I borrow your blinded with hatred ones?
Ani Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 True, and I'm just playing Devils Dick here, but we didn't exactly get off to the best of starts iirc. Pretty dull draw with the Swiss, bit fortunate to beat the jocks but did turn it on against Holland. Lucky to beat Spain as well, we got an offside decision in our favour that day - had we not we may well have lost. Should have beat Germany though! Not really sure what I am getting at here other than perhaps noting that when we have done well luck has been on our side? The point about system is a good one though. I think Roy's problem was that he wanted to play in a certain 'style' but didn't seem to know how to pull it off. He also didn't seem to react to teams/events as they happened or if he did he made poor choices. This actually ads to the point , on the back of one bad game I you do not change everything. I think Shearer had gone nearly 2 years without scoring before tournament.
BOWTUN BAKED Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Can I borrow your blinded with hatred ones? Sure, if you think they'll help you to see
Site Supporter Alf Hartigan Posted July 1, 2016 Site Supporter Posted July 1, 2016 I am all for giving the players shit and they deserve for the performance on Monday, but the starting point has to be the culture and approach, after only 1 win ever just blaming the current players can not be the answer. We need a manager who is strong enough to pick the players he thinks are right to play to the system he is going to play. 3 successful European team, Spain, Italy and Germany, all three have played systems that before world cup we would have expected, I still have no idea what system we were trying to play. Once you have a system you pick players for that system, it is pretty simple, you pick the best player for each position, every payer who is picked knows their job and does it, if Wayne Rooney is nt fit enough or fast enough to play upfront the system does not change, and there is no system in world football that means that Wilshire and Rooney are left to run midfield. The closest we have come in recent years was Euro 96, if you look at the team that played Germany there is only player who has a squad number above 11, and that was because Gary Neville was suspended, we played a team and system that everyone knew and understood, their roles, and we were a goal post away from the final. Just looking at that pic, Who the fook played right back for us?
frank_spencer Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Just looking at that pic, Who the fook played right back for us?Anderton?
Site Supporter Alf Hartigan Posted July 1, 2016 Site Supporter Posted July 1, 2016 Anderton? Dunno Frank, prob best shout, anyone remember for sure.
gonzo Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 Just looking at that pic, Who the fook played right back for us? I kept counting the players haha
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