Thoughts On Southgate And The Future Of England

[bwfcfan5]

Any of the 11 players being creative would be a start. Just a team of runners with no one who can play a ball. Would have looked very poor against any of the better teams.

 

Genuinely can't understand anyone who thinks there are signs we can go on and compete regularly with this team. All the stick about Allardyce's style for football and Southgate is lauded for a team who can only score from set pieces.

 

I think we just wanted to maximise what we had. And we did. No point banging on about not having a Modric...we don't. The players we had available probably did as well as they could.

 

We played out from the back which is what gets praised, though somewhat naively at times last night.

[maaarsh]

I think we just wanted to maximise what we had. And we did. No point banging on about not having a Modric...we don't. The players we had available probably did as well as they could.

 

We played out from the back which is what gets praised, though somewhat naively at times last night.

 

So we're excited because we've started doing the easy bit but still don't have the ability to do the bit which actually wins games.

 

Dele Ali looks so dangerous for Tottenham next to Eriksen, but playing next to a clone of himself in Lingard they both looked pretty ordinary. Struggling to get excited by being clearly outmatched by a country with a population smaller than Scotland. Unless they can find a ball player (and some defenders who can defend as well as they pass) they'll be nowhere near next time when the better teams turn up to play.

[bwfcfan5]

So we're excited because we've started doing the easy bit but still don't have the ability to do the bit which actually wins games.

 

Dele Ali looks so dangerous for Tottenham next to Eriksen, but playing next to a clone of himself in Lingard they both looked pretty ordinary. Struggling to get excited by being clearly outmatched by a country with a population smaller than Scotland. Unless they can find a ball player (and some defenders who can defend as well as they pass) they'll be nowhere near next time when the better teams turn up to play.

 

That is a bit reductive. We've been nowhere near since 96...first semi final in a tournament since then. So that is progress. Especially considering last tournament we were knocked out by Iceland.

 

I think you can only judge each tournament separately and the semi final and being close to a final is way beyond what most expected of the team. The whole system now in English football is working against the national team, but I'm not sure how you change that. Southgate and the FA cannot create a world class midfield player. You have what you have. 

[MalcolmW]

As GS said a few days ago:

"When things are going well, they are never quite as good as they seem;

when things are going badly, they are never quite as bad as they seem."

[maaarsh]

That is a bit reductive. We've been nowhere near since 96...first semi final in a tournament since then. So that is progress. Especially considering last tournament we were knocked out by Iceland.

 

I think you can only judge each tournament separately and the semi final and being close to a final is way beyond what most expected of the team. The whole system now in English football is working against the national team, but I'm not sure how you change that. Southgate and the FA cannot create a world class midfield player. You have what you have. 

 

Taking this world cup entirely on its own, the performances were nothing special compared to our usual standards, we beat teams we should have beaten, and struggled against other teams we might have beaten. Fortunately we never played a top team, as our defence would have been shown up big time.

 

I just didn't see any sign that there was any improvement beyond reaping some of the benefit of an easy draw - I expected us to beat Croatia and make the final, but in the end we were well beaten.

 

I get this all seems very negative, but I'm just reacting against the ludicrous response of the papers that we're all supposed to be immensely proud and see a massive step forward. If they team genuinely had taken a step forward, we'd have topped our group and been knocked out in the quarters - simply taking your guide from what round you reached is a bit silly unless you actually win the whole thing.

[madthatter]

As GS said a few days ago:

"When things are going well, they are never quite as good as they seem;

when things are going badly, they are never quite as bad as they seem."

 

Yeah I liked that.  Wise words 

[Dr Faustus]

Take down the flags

Wind in the bunting

It's not our time

We know it's not coming

Or shop fronts and homes

Will soon seem empty

But the sea of St George

Will be a glorious memory

Hold your head high

As echoes of cheers ring loud

Faith restored;

You've done us all proud

This time was different

You wrote your own story

A summer of hope

A dalliance with glory

You've brought us passion

Joy

Heartbreak

Frustration

Above all else

Brought us together as a nation

You've given us belief

A reason to be optimistic

Pride in our Lions

And fuck me, we've missed it

So we dust ourselves down

Carry things forward

We achieve the dreams

We've had since boyhood

We believe

We believe that in 2 years

Or 4

Or 8

That our time will come

Our preordained fate

And we'll hoist up our flags

We'll unwind our bunting

Because next time is our time

We know it's coming

[bwfcfan5]

Taking this world cup entirely on its own, the performances were nothing special compared to our usual standards, we beat teams we should have beaten, and struggled against other teams we might have beaten. Fortunately we never played a top team, as our defence would have been shown up big time.

 

I just didn't see any sign that there was any improvement beyond reaping some of the benefit of an easy draw - I expected us to beat Croatia and make the final, but in the end we were well beaten.

 

I get this all seems very negative, but I'm just reacting against the ludicrous response of the papers that we're all supposed to be immensely proud and see a massive step forward. If they team genuinely had taken a step forward, we'd have topped our group and been knocked out in the quarters - simply taking your guide from what round you reached is a bit silly unless you actually win the whole thing.

It isn’t a step forward from losing to Iceland?

[maaarsh]

It isn’t a step forward from losing to Iceland?

 

That was the benchmark? Germany won't be celebrating getting knocked out in the round of 16 next time because it's better than the group stages this time. The performances were basically bang in line with our normal standard, ignoring outliers on either side - this wasn't Euro 16, or Euro 96.

[bwfcfan5]

That was the benchmark? Germany won't be celebrating getting knocked out in the round of 16 next time because it's better than the group stages this time. The performances were basically bang in line with our normal standard, ignoring outliers on either side - this wasn't Euro 16, or Euro 96.

 

Since we've entered the world cup there have been 18 tournaments.

 

We've won once, on home soil, the only final we've reached. We've made the semis on 3 times including last night. In the last two world cups we reached the round of 16 and were knocked out at the group stage - failing to beat Costa Rica, losing to Italy who didn't even quality for 2018.

 

I'm struggling to see how this isn't progress unless you've got some massive agenda to push. We played good sides in Colombia and Sweden and got through both instances. Are they the best in the world? No. But then, neither are we and we haven't been for a long time. 

[jimmyjoojar]

That was the benchmark? Germany won't be celebrating getting knocked out in the round of 16 next time because it's better than the group stages this time. The performances were basically bang in line with our normal standard, ignoring outliers on either side - this wasn't Euro 16, or Euro 96.

 

Maaarsh, don't we only ever hear from you when you've got some misery and bad news to revel in.

 

You seem like the annoying "know it all" prick in the pub that everyone detests.

[maaarsh]

Maaarsh, don't we only ever hear from you when you've got some misery and bad news to revel in.

 

You seem like the annoying "know it all" prick in the pub that everyone detests.

 

Aye, see you in a couple of months 

[jimmyjoojar]

Aye, see you in a couple of months 

 

Must be a fucking miserable way to spend your life...

[maaarsh]

Must be a fucking miserable way to spend your life...

 

Fortunately this website is not my life. I post here occasionally as none of my friends are particularly interested in sport, and I don't post if I have nothing to say. I'm quite happy not to be as insipid as Gareth when I do post.

[Adlington Trotter]

We get two more cracks at Croatia later this year in this Nations League thing.

 

Obviously those matches won't make up for losing last night, nor will doing well in that competition match winning the world cup.

 

But it does give us a chance to continue the new positivity there is for the national side, so I think they are important games. Take those matches seriously and give it a right good go.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Adlington Trotter

[jimmyjoojar]

Fortunately this website is not my life. I post here occasionally as none of my friends are particularly interested in sport, and I don't post if I have nothing to say. I'm quite happy not to be as insipid as Gareth when I do post.

 

Aye, you strike me as the sort to be the life and soul of things and a joy to be around beyond matters relating to sport.

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by jimmyjoojar

[bolty58]

Just back in Perth after a serene time in Southern Spain watching the WC. Full marks to Southgate and the boys for over achieving IMO. We lack some class and creativity in midfield but the other parts of our game are looking pretty fucking good to me.

 

I've backed France to win it so a final against us would have been perfect. I'd be wanting to lose the money of course but would have had some financial compensation for any disappointment.

 

Well happy with England team as a whole at the moment.

[Guest]

[quote name="maaarsh" post="18066

 

Struggling to get excited by being clearly outmatched by a country with a population smaller than Scotland .

 

The worlds 4 largest countries by population didn’t even make it

Edited July 13, 2018 by boltondiver

[gonzo]

Wales has a population of about 35 but made it to a semi because of one of them.

 

Belgium is hardly massive either.

[barrycowdrill]

honestly have to re read what some write at times. unbelievable

 

There has been progress made right across the board. were we fortunate to get to a semi final? Yes and no. We were fortunate the draw opened up as it did. On paper there were many teams stronger than us. But it doesnt work like that. If it did we may as well all pack it in and fuck off home as the No 1 team in the world rankings would always win it 'on paper'

 

But we fully deserved to get there as we beat the teams who ended up facing us. Regardless of who we faced it was the furthest we have got in almost a generation. No one dis credits our SF place in '90 even though we faced equally as shit teams in that run

 

But aside from that, Southgate and the players have created a system, a way of playing that finally, for once, didnt embarass us. The whole nation bought in to it, we all believed. truly believed. Every man & his dog tuned in, fell in love with the national team again and wanted them to succeed. It didnt go the way we all wanted it to but at least now we have some hope & positivity for the future

 

regardless of what happened on the pitch if that isnt progress i dont know what is 

Edited July 13, 2018 by barrycowdrill

[bwfcfan5]

honestly have to re read what some write at times. unbelievable

 

There has been progress made right across the board. were we fortunate to get to a semi final? Yes and no. We were fortunate the draw opened up as it did. On paper there were many teams stronger than us. But it doesnt work like that. If it did we may as well all pack it in and fuck off home as the No 1 team in the world rankings would always win it 'on paper'

 

But we fully deserved to get there as we beat the teams who ended up facing us. Regardless of who we faced it was the furthest we have got in almost a generation. No one dis credits our SF place in '90 even though we faced equally as shit teams in that run

 

But aside from that, Southgate and the players have created a system, a way of playing that finally, for once, didnt embarass us. The whole nation bought in to it, we all believed. truly believed. Every man & his dog tuned in, fell in love with the national team again and wanted them to succeed. It didnt go the way we all wanted it to but at least now we have some hope & positivity for the future

 

regardless of what happened on the pitch if that isnt progress i dont know what is 

 

Don't buy into the "system" or way of playing stuff. Ultimately we might have beaten Croatia if we'd changed to a back 4 and stopped trying to pass the ball into a midfield we were being outplayed and outnumbered in.

 

Not a critique, but in 2 years we might suit a different system. International football is about flexibility. Every game is different. Croatia were outplayed but adapted and changed their style before half time. England carried on doing the same thing even when the opposition sussed us out.

 

Happy with the tournament and the fact once again we can be proud of the side. But moving forwards the adaptability needs to be there or we'll win nothing. 

[barrycowdrill]

Don't buy into the "system" or way of playing stuff. Ultimately we might have beaten Croatia if we'd changed to a back 4 and stopped trying to pass the ball into a midfield we were being outplayed and outnumbered in.

 

Not a critique, but in 2 years we might suit a different system. International football is about flexibility. Every game is different. Croatia were outplayed but adapted and changed their style before half time. England carried on doing the same thing even when the opposition sussed us out.

 

Happy with the tournament and the fact once again we can be proud of the side. But moving forwards the adaptability needs to be there or we'll win nothing. 

 

yes but at least we had a plan and philosophy. was it too rigid? perhaps. But we can only play with what we have.

 

at least Southgate recognised that and set us up accordingly. Yes it may change in 2 years with other players coming through but for here and for now we had a settled approach and you cant knock that as it got us where it did

 

and looking back at previous efforts in tournament football its was miles ahead of the Iceland and Euro 16 as a whole shambles 

 

I'd much rather have an idea on how to play and tweak it slightly to accommodate different players than bounce from one tournament to another with no idea 

[Guest]

honestly have to re read what some write at times. unbelievable

 

There has been progress made right across the board. were we fortunate to get to a semi final? Yes and no. We were fortunate the draw opened up as it did. On paper there were many teams stronger than us. But it doesnt work like that. If it did we may as well all pack it in and fuck off home as the No 1 team in the world rankings would always win it 'on paper'

 

But we fully deserved to get there as we beat the teams who ended up facing us. Regardless of who we faced it was the furthest we have got in almost a generation. No one dis credits our SF place in '90 even though we faced equally as shit teams in that run

 

But aside from that, Southgate and the players have created a system, a way of playing that finally, for once, didnt embarass us. The whole nation bought in to it, we all believed. truly believed. Every man & his dog tuned in, fell in love with the national team again and wanted them to succeed. It didnt go the way we all wanted it to but at least now we have some hope & positivity for the future

 

regardless of what happened on the pitch if that isnt progress i dont know what is

 

Amen, brother

[bolty58]

honestly have to re read what some write at times. unbelievable

 

There has been progress made right across the board. were we fortunate to get to a semi final? Yes and no. We were fortunate the draw opened up as it did. On paper there were many teams stronger than us. But it doesnt work like that. If it did we may as well all pack it in and fuck off home as the No 1 team in the world rankings would always win it 'on paper'

 

But we fully deserved to get there as we beat the teams who ended up facing us. Regardless of who we faced it was the furthest we have got in almost a generation. No one dis credits our SF place in '90 even though we faced equally as shit teams in that run

 

But aside from that, Southgate and the players have created a system, a way of playing that finally, for once, didnt embarass us. The whole nation bought in to it, we all believed. truly believed. Every man & his dog tuned in, fell in love with the national team again and wanted them to succeed. It didnt go the way we all wanted it to but at least now we have some hope & positivity for the future

 

regardless of what happened on the pitch if that isnt progress i dont know what is 

 

Spot on Barry.

 

I have also noticed that teams hitting their straps too early often fail. Working your way into a tournament and getting stronger as it progresses is a way to success.

 

France a case in point. Thoroughly unconvincing against the Shockerpoos but grew into the almost complete performance against a highly rated Belgian team. People are wanking on over M'Bappe and rightly so. I was a couple of years ago when he was terrorising defences for Monaco and they were a mainstay of my betting programme for that season. One player has outshone him IMO. Varane. If he's not the best defender in the world at present, I should forget football and take up deck quoits.

[RONNIE PHILLIPS]

Spot on Barry.

 

I have also noticed that teams hitting their straps too early often fail. Working your way into a tournament and getting stronger as it progresses is a way to success.

 

France a case in point. Thoroughly unconvincing against the Shockerpoos but grew into the almost complete performance against a highly rated Belgian team. People are wanking on over M'Bappe and rightly so. I was a couple of years ago when he was terrorising defences for Monaco and they were a mainstay of my betting programme for that season. One player has outshone him IMO. Varane. If he's not the best defender in the world at present, I should forget football and take up deck quoits.

Even better than the self proclaimed Dejan Lovren?