Equality in sport

[birch-chorley]

2 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

it was more a reference to covid, which is a big old problem

racism is older, but perhaps not as big right now

but

there's still an issue

look at the counter protests for a start

and the rise of figures like katie hopkins and tommy robinson

brexit uncovered a lot of ignorance

none of that is evidence, but, you see what you want to see and interpret it accordingly

we're not seeing lynchings or cops killing folk on a regular basis, but it doesn't mean there isn't a problem with it

I can see it's there, but not in my every day life

The players are kneeling in support of BLM, a political group who believe our system is inherently racist (Systemic racism) 

‘the system’ is broadly the key mechanisms of society... Education, Welfare, Healthcare & Justice. I’ve not seen any evidence that suggest ‘the system’ is inherently racist. Just evidence that’s portrayed as racist when in fact it’s more to do with cultural differences 

A few idiots at a football match being racist isn’t ‘the system’, they are a small minority. That stuff is better dealt with by a kick it out campaign than BLM for me 

For me, I’d say that this whole thing (in the U.K. at least) is just populist bollocks that’s been blown well out of proportion. In the same vein as the whole leave the EU so we can get rid of all the foreigners was. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, birch-chorley said:

The players are kneeling in support of BLM, a political group who believe our system is inherently racist (Systemic racism) 

‘the system’ is broadly the key mechanisms of society... Education, Welfare, Healthcare & Justice. I’ve not seen any evidence that suggest ‘the system’ is inherently racist. Just evidence that’s portrayed as racist when in fact it’s more to do with cultural differences 

A few idiots at a football match being racist isn’t ‘the system’, they are a small minority. That stuff is better dealt with by a kick it out campaign than BLM for me 

For me, I’d say that this whole thing (in the U.K. at least) is just populist bollocks that’s been blown well out of proportion. In the same vein as the whole leave the EU so we can get rid of all the foreigners was. 

Agree with everything there. Except the last sentence, as that is as much a generalisation as saying the system is racist.

The kick it out campaign has done plenty and hopefully will continue to do so, and not be overshadowed or knocked back by the BLM movement. 

[Zico]

4 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

The players are kneeling in support of BLM, a political group who believe our system is inherently racist (Systemic racism) 

‘the system’ is broadly the key mechanisms of society... Education, Welfare, Healthcare & Justice. I’ve not seen any evidence that suggest ‘the system’ is inherently racist. Just evidence that’s portrayed as racist when in fact it’s more to do with cultural differences 

A few idiots at a football match being racist isn’t ‘the system’, they are a small minority. That stuff is better dealt with by a kick it out campaign than BLM for me 

For me, I’d say that this whole thing (in the U.K. at least) is just populist bollocks that’s been blown well out of proportion. In the same vein as the whole leave the EU so we can get rid of all the foreigners was. 

I'd say the kneeling came before the "political group" as we know it now

the initial protests over here weren't backing that group

the movement has been hijacked, like these left/right movements often do (certainly in recent times)

it may well be blown out of proportion, but then again, so is the reaction

anyway, I'm fine if people want to bend the knee, if it's what they believe in and/or have experienced first hand

I'm not fine with poltical group, the stuff in portland, that girl from oxford who calls black lads coons or those black lads pretending to be a militia in a london park

[Tonge moor green jacket]

3 hours ago, ZicoKelly said:

two spring to mind

 

it's not just about sport in the UK - some of these players get it when they play abroad and they've had enough

remember a guy calling in to radio 5 - he was a bulgarian who was ashamed of what their fans did when we played there

but he also pointed out that when he went to the game at wembley and were round the ground in their shirts, they got dogs abuse from england fans mostly around being gypos

and the knee thing, it's not just about sport

you'll also find a fair few videos on the tube showing folk thinking it's ok to racially abuse folk

it's a proble, here and globally

but most on here don't see it, because they aren't black

Sorry, that last sentence is bollocks. When a case of racial abuse at a match is identified, other fans have reported them, cameras have picked it up and the perpetrators dealt with. Because there is a good system in place to do so.

We can all see what has happened and you'll find condemned at the time. 

We are all aware there are issues the world over, and that this country has its share of twats.

That doesn't mean we need to witness players taking the knee each game to know such behaviour is unacceptable. 

That sort of comment is what makes people start to feel resentment and is the start of a slippery slope backwards.

 

[Zico]

3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Sorry, that last sentence is bollocks. When a case of racial abuse at a match is identified, other fans have reported them, cameras have picked it up and the perpetrators dealt with. Because there is a good system in place to do so.

We can all see what has happened and you'll find condemned at the time. 

We are all aware there are issues the world over, and that this country has its share of twats.

That doesn't mean we need to witness players taking the knee each game to know such behaviour is unacceptable. 

That sort of comment is what makes people start to feel resentment and is the start of a slippery slope backwards.

 

it may come across as glib, but I think that a lack of empathy is part of the issue

and because that football has become the beacon for the message, people appear to assume that it means racism is a particular problem in football and/or in the UK (hence the conclusion it's not because half the England team are black)

and comments like mine perhaps stem from folk saying they will turn their back because they don't personally see an issue

 

[Cheese]

1 hour ago, Mr Grey said:

They are views, nothing to do with ignorance, you do seem to have a problem with other peoples views and opinions, which in itself is deemed as ignorance.

Not in the slightest. I'm not the one "turning my back" on footballers for expressing an opinion and calling for them to be stopped.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Cheese

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Mr Grey said:

You don't want anybody else to have a different view or opinion to yours, you obviously find it difficult, that's not my problem that's yours.

No, you just don't like having your opinions criticised, and your instinctive reaction is to feel threatened rather than discuss it. Hold whatever opinion you like.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Cheese

[birch-chorley]

I'm sure if it was a one off, or even once a season like the kick it out stuff then you would get little or no reaction to it. The fact that it seems to be a part of every single game and will be for the foreseeable future just means its gone way over the top now for many. 

If we are going to get behind one international campaign for the foreseeable future then should it be the injustice faced by a minority Black population in some parts of the USA? How about genocide of the Uighurs's in China (the country making most of the kit and boots the players are in when they take a knee), surely everyone would agree that its a much bigger injustice. Or the biggest injustice of the lot, Gerry Taggarts  disallowed goal against Everton, we should be protesting over that if anything 

[DazBob]

It's a complete waste of time trying to engage with these people. They're the same ones who, when all this kicked off and the initial statement of "Black Lives Matter" came out, were the ones who were offended because it wasn't "All lives matter".

They don't think there's a problem, they're sick of hearing about it and sick of seeing it ... to the point where they'll avoid watching their own team kick off a football match to avoid it.  Leave them to it.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

35 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

it may come across as glib, but I think that a lack of empathy is part of the issue

and because that football has become the beacon for the message, people appear to assume that it means racism is a particular problem in football and/or in the UK (hence the conclusion it's not because half the England team are black)

and comments like mine perhaps stem from folk saying they will turn their back because they don't personally see an issue

 

Again that's wrong. People aren't saying there isn't an issue. Its that they're sick of being told there is. The vast majority don't need to be told. Its all over the media non stop. They want to go to the match to escape life's troubles and difficulties. Its actually the very action of going to watch teams of all nationalities that is the greatest message of acceptance and recognition of equality. 

The nastiness of yesteryear is long gone, we are all aware that on occasions abuse does occur and its dealt with.

We have kick it out working within the game towards eradication. That’s where it should remain and not with symbolism associated with a political organisation hiding behind a message we're already aware of.

[Cheese]

19 minutes ago, DazBob said:

It's a complete waste of time trying to engage with these people. They're the same ones who, when all this kicked off and the initial statement of "Black Lives Matter" came out, were the ones who were offended because it wasn't "All lives matter".

They don't think there's a problem, they're sick of hearing about it and sick of seeing it ... to the point where they'll avoid watching their own team kick off a football match to avoid it.  Leave them to it.

Spot on.

[radcliffe white]

1 minute ago, Mr Grey said:

And that has been my whole point, unfortunately the words ignorance, and racism are replied all to easily.

Wasting your time fella 

[Zico]

31 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Again that's wrong. People aren't saying there isn't an issue. Its that they're sick of being told there is. The vast majority don't need to be told. Its all over the media non stop. They want to go to the match to escape life's troubles and difficulties. Its actually the very action of going to watch teams of all nationalities that is the greatest message of acceptance and recognition of equality. 

The nastiness of yesteryear is long gone, we are all aware that on occasions abuse does occur and its dealt with.

We have kick it out working within the game towards eradication. That’s where it should remain and not with symbolism associated with a political organisation hiding behind a message we're already aware of.

sorry, but reading this thread it's clear people don't think it's that bad

the nastiness of yesteryear isn't long gone at all

it might not be festering in the stands, but it's rife on social media

it's not being dealt with at all, not at a broad level, I just googled "racial abuse social media" and a quick look at the results tells me the follwoing people have been targetted in the last few months:

Marcus Rashford
Paul Pogba
Jude Bellingham
Wilfried Zaha
Patrick Van Aanholt
Ian Wright
Gabby Agbonlahor
Famara Diedhiou
Moeen Ali
Jofra Archer
Meghan Markle

someone also sent Clive Myris a gorilla card in the post

end of the day, football has a wide audience, so those affected see it as an opporunity to get the message across

clearly, kick it out is not working, because if you kick it out of the stands, it just goes somewhere else

[Escobarp]

6 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

sorry, but reading this thread it's clear people don't think it's that bad

the nastiness of yesteryear isn't long gone at all

it might not be festering in the stands, but it's rife on social media

it's not being dealt with at all, not at a broad level, I just googled "racial abuse social media" and a quick look at the results tells me the follwoing people have been targetted in the last few months:

Marcus Rashford
Paul Pogba
Jude Bellingham
Wilfried Zaha
Patrick Van Aanholt
Ian Wright
Gabby Agbonlahor
Famara Diedhiou
Moeen Ali
Jofra Archer
Meghan Markle

someone also sent Clive Myris a gorilla card in the post

end of the day, football has a wide audience, so those affected see it as an opporunity to get the message across

clearly, kick it out is not working, because if you kick it out of the stands, it just goes somewhere else

Question. Do you think the people giving out the abuse on social media would do so in person? If not then is the problem not vastly exaggerated by social media and the anonymous platform it provides that encourages shithouses to behave as they wish without fear of reprisal? When I’m reality if faced with the same person they wouldn’t say a word  

i can think of one such poster on here who fits that bill perfectly so we have a live example don’t we. 
 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Escobarp

[DazBob]

1 minute ago, Escobarp said:

Question. Do you think the people giving out the abuse on social media would do so in person? If not then is the problem not social media and the anonymous platform it provides that encourages shithouses to behave as they wish without fear of reprisal? When I’m reality if faced with the same person they wouldn’t say a word  

i can think of one such poster on here who fits that bill perfectly so we have a live example don’t we. 

Being argumentative on a football forum isn't really comparable to calling a black footballer a monkey on Twitter.

Sure, I agree the anonymity of social media allows people to say what they want without fear of repercussions,  but the need for morons to racially abuse someone, whether it be anonymously or not suggest there is still a problem.

[Zico]

2 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Question. Do you think the people giving out the abuse on social media would do so in person? If not then is the problem not social media and the anonymous platform it provides that encourages shithouses to behave as they wish without fear of reprisal? When I’m reality if faced with the same person they wouldn’t say a word  

i can think of one such poster on here who fits that bill perfectly so we have a live example don’t we. 

no, I don't

but I also don't think that the guy who did the monkey chant at city would do that to a black person walking down the street face to face

and whether he said "black cunt" or "manc cunt" the guy at chelsea probably doesn't generally shout at people as he goes about his every day life

the problem is the mindset that they think being on twitter or in a crowd, (or a cop in the states) means they can get away with it

i go on twitter and instagram too, but I've never been inclined to send racist abuse to anyone, never even crossed my mind, so why does it cross theirs?

[Escobarp]

Just now, DazBob said:

Being argumentative on a football forum isn't really comparable to calling a black footballer a monkey on Twitter.

Sure, I agree the anonymity of social media allows people to say what they want without fear of repercussions,  but the need for morons to racially abuse someone, whether it be anonymously or not suggest there is still a problem.

There is a problem. Is it as big as is made out by some? I’m not sure. Could we assist in decreasing the problem by making every social media account traceable? Absolutely. 
 

would it stop people on here and other platforms using words and names they wouldn’t otherwise dream of as they are absolute shit bags in real life? Absolutely. 
 

why don’t we trial it on here. Anyone calls someone for example a racist, and the recipient of the slur gets the personal details including address of the person making the comment. See how quickly the banding about of such words ceases when they turn up on said persons doorstep. I think we all know it would be almost immediate and the person saying these things would stop. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

7 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Question. Do you think the people giving out the abuse on social media would do so in person? If not then is the problem not social media and the anonymous platform it provides that encourages shithouses to behave as they wish without fear of reprisal? When I’m reality if faced with the same person they wouldn’t say a word  

i can think of one such poster on here who fits that bill perfectly so we have a live example don’t we. 

Would have posted something similar in reply. A lot of what is on social media is scummy cunts looking for a reaction. May well be 'ist' in some way or may be just short of a life and looking for kicks.

Just like that Wigan vegetable and his 33 name. In fact the knee business is more likely to provide fuel for them. Best left alone.

Miles away from football reality and the good work achieved so far. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Tonge moor green jacket

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, ZicoKelly said:

no, I don't

but I also don't think that the guy who did the monkey chant at city would do that to a black person walking down the street face to face

and whether he said "black cunt" or "manc cunt" the guy at chelsea probably doesn't generally shout at people as he goes about his every day life

the problem is the mindset that they think being on twitter or in a crowd, (or a cop in the states) means they can get away with it

i go on twitter and instagram too, but I've never been inclined to send racist abuse to anyone, never even crossed my mind, so why does it cross theirs?

Cos the are just genuinely dispicable members of society and it needs eradicating. But let’s try and remove one method of this vile behaviour being easy to undertake. 

[Zico]

6 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

There is a problem. Is it as big as is made out by some? I’m not sure. Could we assist in decreasing the problem by making every social media account traceable? Absolutely. 
 

would it stop people on here and other platforms using words and names they wouldn’t otherwise dream of as they are absolute shit bags in real life? Absolutely. 
 

why don’t we trial it on here. Anyone calls someone for example a racist, and the recipient of the slur gets the personal details including address of the person making the comment. See how quickly the banding about of such words ceases when they turn up on said persons doorstep. I think we all know it would be almost immediate and the person saying these things would stop. 

define "big"

Zaha reckons he's reported a further 50 accounts since he made his initial complaint, and doesn't even look at most of the messages he received

I guess to a degree it's subjective, and also if you've not been subjected to it, why would you think there's problem?

I imagine, colletively, black PL footballers might concur there's a big problem, one that's been around for a very long time, as they aren't the first to find themselves on the receiving end

so whilst they keep getting it, they can keep kneeling for me

and yes, social media platforms can do more to tackle this, so hopefully one day they will take note

 

[DazBob]

4 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

There is a problem. Is it as big as is made out by some? I’m not sure. Could we assist in decreasing the problem by making every social media account traceable? Absolutely. 
 

would it stop people on here and other platforms using words and names they wouldn’t otherwise dream of as they are absolute shit bags in real life? Absolutely. 
 

why don’t we trial it on here. Anyone calls someone for example a racist, and the recipient of the slur gets the personal details including address of the person making the comment. See how quickly the banding about of such words ceases when they turn up on said persons doorstep. I think we all know it would be almost immediate and the person saying these things would stop. 

I have little doubt racism it's not as bad as it once was, nor is it as bad as it is in many other places.  Looking at the examples Zico has pointed out though there's still too much of it. 

Regarding the anonymity, I completely agree that every account should be traceable so that anyone who makes obscene comments can be traced and prosecuted - not sure who would store this data though, nor who could be trusted to do it.

As for forums such as this, ha, I'm, not so sure.  Imagine how many doors Miami would've knocked on over the years.  We all have arguments on here and it gets heated sometimes, but it should never come down to the threat of a physical confrontation, and you should never be afraid to argue with someone just in case they call round and kick your head in.

Also, calling someone a racist on a forum is not the same as someone like Ian Wright being racially abused on a daily basis. 

[Escobarp]

9 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

define "big"

Zaha reckons he's reported a further 50 accounts since he made his initial complaint, and doesn't even look at most of the messages he received

I guess to a degree it's subjective, and also if you've not been subjected to it, why would you think there's problem?

I imagine, colletively, black PL footballers might concur there's a big problem, one that's been around for a very long time, as they aren't the first to find themselves on the receiving end

so whilst they keep getting it, they can keep kneeling for me

and yes, social media platforms can do more to tackle this, so hopefully one day they will take note

 

You know it’s impossible to define how big the problem is. Is it so “big” that it needed tens of thousands of rent a mob protestors during national lockdown to march the streets and vandalise property? I don’t think so. But you mate disagree and many will. And that’s what makes for healthy debate. 

[birch-chorley]

Seems like the biggest issue then is a minority of idiots racially abusing people based on skin color, rather than systemic racism in society disadvantaging Black people. if taking a knee at the footy is all about stamping out the racist abuse then fair enough. However I would question why just stop at 'Black' when people of color (yellow, brown etc) will all experience the same issue's in the UK, just seems a bit strange. That's why the kick it out campaign would feel more relevant, certainly for UK Football anyway. 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by birch-chorley

[Escobarp]

9 minutes ago, DazBob said:

I have little doubt racism it's not as bad as it once was, nor is it as bad as it is in many other places.  Looking at the examples Zico has pointed out though there's still too much of it. 

Regarding the anonymity, I completely agree that every account should be traceable so that anyone who makes obscene comments can be traced and prosecuted - not sure who would store this data though, nor who could be trusted to do it.

As for forums such as this, ha, I'm, not so sure.  Imagine how many doors Miami would've knocked on over the years.  We all have arguments on here and it gets heated sometimes, but it should never come down to the threat of a physical confrontation, and you should never be afraid to argue with someone just in case they call round and kick your head in.

Also, calling someone a racist on a forum is not the same as someone like Ian Wright being racially abused on a daily basis. 

But calling someone a racist who clearly isn’t, is offensive. So it’s not the same but it’s still offensive.
 

Someone called me a white bastard would I be offended? No. Is it still racist and the same as what happens to say ian Wright using your example? Yeah it’s just as bad. 

[tomski]

Tend to find the people on here who get in heated arguments also love Rocky 4....................