Equality in sport

[royal white]

Just now, Ani said:

Ok. So all that about the name only covering blacks was not relevant. 
 

So you do not think it is an issue. Other people do. They have a right to protest so really still not sure what your issue is. 

how was it not? 

 

So what is the issue then? Tell me how since George Floyd was killed blacks are are having such a bad time in British football.

[birch-chorley]

42 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

it's a broad statement, but as i see it:

footballers - no, well represented

managers / coaches - maybe, the numbers don't stack up, I'm happy for questions to be asked why, in a constructive way

players treatment by the press - to a degree, I'm happy for Sterling et al to raise issues if they see them, in a constructive way

players treatment by fans - yes, and I'm happy for players who feel affected to do things like take the knee

other sports - I'm not into anything half as much as footy, but, it seems that the powers that be think so, so I will take their word for it:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/15/an-ugly-truth-british-sports-bodies-admit-failure-to-confront-racism
The governing bodies of more than 80 of the nation’s sports – including the Rugby Football Union, Lawn Tennis Association, British Cycling, UK Athletics and England Netball – have published an unprecedented statement saying they have not done enough to confront racism at all levels, from grassroots participation through to the boardroom.

I would find it difficult to argue otherwise with the governing bodies of over 80 sports

 

Be interested to find out why they think we don’t have many Black people in the U.K. Swimming team 

No doubt it’s systemic racism and nothing to do with parents personal responsibility / culture 

[royal white]

4 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Be interested to find out why they think we don’t have many Black people in the U.K. Swimming team 

No doubt it’s systemic racism and nothing to do with parents personal responsibility / culture 

It’s a typical guardian article. You can look at it another way. Blacks are massively over represented in the England football team and athletics. I don’t think anyone is Really bothered when it’s that way round though 

Edited September 8, 2020 by royal white

[burnden]

The EFL’s ‘Not Today or Any Day’ campaign logo will feature on EFL player shirts across the Sky Bet Championship, League One and League Two throughout the 2020/21 season, to reinforce the message that discrimination in any form will not be tolerated across the League.

 

https://www.efl.com/news/2020/september/not-today-or-any-day-to-feature-on-efl-player-shirts/

[MickyD]

11 minutes ago, burnden said:

 discrimination in any form will not be tolerated across the League.

Even towards gingers?

[birch-chorley]

29 minutes ago, royal white said:

It’s a typical guardian article. You can look at it another way. Blacks are massively over represented in the England football team and athletics. I don’t think anyone is Really bothered when it’s that way round though 

This is it for me, we seem to look for absolute parity in everything (stop and searches, FTSE 100 boards, Sport, county councils) 

If it’s not in favour of minority groups then it must be systemic racism, if it is favourable then it’s fine. Imagine if they started talking about ways to increase the % of white football players in the PL in an effort to achieve parity! 

[Zico]

51 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Be interested to find out why they think we don’t have many Black people in the U.K. Swimming team 

No doubt it’s systemic racism and nothing to do with parents personal responsibility / culture 

interesting you pick out swimming as it wasn't even mentioned in that article

maybe they know they don't have an issue for the reasons you cite

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

44 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

This is it for me, we seem to look for absolute parity in everything (stop and searches, FTSE 100 boards, Sport, county councils) 

If it’s not in favour of minority groups then it must be systemic racism, if it is favourable then it’s fine. Imagine if they started talking about ways to increase the % of white football players in the PL in an effort to achieve parity! 

Looking for absolute parity or even statistically proportionate representation is the wrong approach, but when threre are stastical anomalies with no obviouse explanation it's worthy of investigation.

One of the obvious ones for me is why is there such a lack of professional footballers from a South Asian ethnic background in this country?

[Ani]

1 hour ago, birch-chorley said:

This is it for me, we seem to look for absolute parity in everything (stop and searches, FTSE 100 boards, Sport, county councils) 

If it’s not in favour of minority groups then it must be systemic racism, if it is favourable then it’s fine. Imagine if they started talking about ways to increase the % of white football players in the PL in an effort to achieve parity! 

No. We look for the barriers that stop equality. We have been through this loop previously. We all have prejudices conscious or sub conscious. That is a fact. So for instance when you talk about a job for a PA most people think ‘woman’s job’ if an engineer a blokes job. 
Have said before that it is natural instinct to appoint on a like for like basis especially if the previous job holder was a decent person ( applies when they are not too). These instincts mean it is tougher for people to move into jobs where their sex/race etc etc have not traditionally worked. So you get rid of things that promote this bias. 
It is not about keeping folk down it is about levelling the playing field. 
 

I am a white Christian heterosexual male and have never experienced any of the standard types of discrimination that get most attention. However I am now 55 and for the first time when looking for work I am thinking my age would be a factor in not recruiting me although in theory age is not something you can discriminate on. 

[birch-chorley]

42 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Looking for absolute parity or even statistically proportionate representation is the wrong approach, but when threre are stastical anomalies with no obviouse explanation it's worthy of investigation.

One of the obvious ones for me is why is there such a lack of professional footballers from a South Asian ethnic background in this country?

India makes up about 20% of the worlds population, I don’t believe they have ever qualified for a World Cup have they? Perhaps they are just shit at football as it’s physically not suited to them. On the flip side Black Players over index as they are more physically suited to the game, same reason they do well at short distance track and field events. Whilst East Africans clean up in long distance 

[royal white]

25 minutes ago, Ani said:

No. We look for the barriers that stop equality. We have been through this loop previously. We all have prejudices conscious or sub conscious. That is a fact. So for instance when you talk about a job for a PA most people think ‘woman’s job’ if an engineer a blokes job. 
Have said before that it is natural instinct to appoint on a like for like basis especially if the previous job holder was a decent person ( applies when they are not too). These instincts mean it is tougher for people to move into jobs where their sex/race etc etc have not traditionally worked. So you get rid of things that promote this bias. 
It is not about keeping folk down it is about levelling the playing field. 
 

I am a white Christian heterosexual male and have never experienced any of the standard types of discrimination that get most attention. However I am now 55 and for the first time when looking for work I am thinking my age would be a factor in not recruiting me although in theory age is not something you can discriminate on. 

So how is this working with blacks in sport? (That is what the topic is about isn’t it)?  We can’t say there inequality And rely on the Guardian producing articles when we don’t know how many people have applied for jobs. 

[Zico]

1 minute ago, royal white said:

So how is this working with blacks in sport? (That is what the topic is about isn’t it)?  We can’t say there inequality And rely on the Guardian producing articles when we don’t know how many people have applied for jobs. 

the guardian were reporting on a collaborative statement from 80+ governing bodies saying that haven't done enough to combat racism at all levels

do you disagree with those 80+ governing bodies?

[birch-chorley]

37 minutes ago, Ani said:

No. We look for the barriers that stop equality. We have been through this loop previously. We all have prejudices conscious or sub conscious. That is a fact. So for instance when you talk about a job for a PA most people think ‘woman’s job’ if an engineer a blokes job. 
Have said before that it is natural instinct to appoint on a like for like basis especially if the previous job holder was a decent person ( applies when they are not too). These instincts mean it is tougher for people to move into jobs where their sex/race etc etc have not traditionally worked. So you get rid of things that promote this bias. 
It is not about keeping folk down it is about levelling the playing field. 
 

I am a white Christian heterosexual male and have never experienced any of the standard types of discrimination that get most attention. However I am now 55 and for the first time when looking for work I am thinking my age would be a factor in not recruiting me although in theory age is not something you can discriminate on. 

That Guardian article talks about setting targets for board representation, seems more like positive discrimination to me (more so than removing barriers) 

It also says that current representation of BAME on boards of British Aport is at 5%, which seems about right to me, not sure what they would want it to be, probably 14% (parity) which is madness 

[royal white]

9 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

the guardian were reporting on a collaborative statement from 80+ governing bodies saying that haven't done enough to combat racism at all levels

do you disagree with those 80+ governing bodies?

It would be interesting to see what the levels/types of racism were in these 80 sports 

[Ani]

7 minutes ago, royal white said:

So how is this working with blacks in sport? (That is what the topic is about isn’t it)?  We can’t say there inequality And rely on the Guardian producing articles when we don’t know how many people have applied for jobs. 

Ok. This topic has widened but in response to the specific about sport I gave you the Yorkshire cricketer as this weeks news. 
In terms of how racism affects black sportsmen there have be various articles about footballers being stopped in their cars whilst driving ‘coz i is black bro’. 
You can listen the Micheal Holding talk about it affected him. 
There is the ongoing debate about number of black coaches. 
Raheem Sterling seems to have experiences he mentions. 
In terms of selecting a best XI I am not aware of anyone saying that is where the issue rears its head. 
 

[Ani]

8 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

That Guardian article talks about setting targets for board representation, seems more like positive discrimination to me (more so than removing barriers) 

It also says that current representation of BAME on boards of British Aport is at 5%, which seems about right to me, not sure what they would want it to be, probably 14% (parity) which is madness 

No. You remove the barriers eventually you get parity. 
 

If you flip it round and say we want the best people on our Board but we are missing out because people from the BAME community are not applying. Would you do something about it ? 
 

 

[royal white]

10 minutes ago, Ani said:

Ok. This topic has widened but in response to the specific about sport I gave you the Yorkshire cricketer as this weeks news. 
In terms of how racism affects black sportsmen there have be various articles about footballers being stopped in their cars whilst driving ‘coz i is black bro’. 
You can listen the Micheal Holding talk about it affected him. 
There is the ongoing debate about number of black coaches. 
Raheem Sterling seems to have experiences he mentions. 
In terms of selecting a best XI I am not aware of anyone saying that is where the issue rears its head. 
 

“So how is this working with blacks in sports” and you’ve used an Asian cricketer who has said he’s been racially abused and brought into the topic black lads getting pulled in cars. 

damn fine examples! 🤦‍♂️

Rudy who is black and is a coach has touched on the coaching subject. 

I take it you're just fishing now 
 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

53 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

India makes up about 20% of the worlds population, I don’t believe they have ever qualified for a World Cup have they? Perhaps they are just shit at football as it’s physically not suited to them. On the flip side Black Players over index as they are more physically suited to the game, same reason they do well at short distance track and field events. Whilst East Africans clean up in long distance 

I mean Asian people living in this country. Plenty are interested in football, plenty play five-a-side, etc.

Yet hardly, if any, go on to become professional footballers. I find it hard to believe that none of them want to.

[birch-chorley]

12 minutes ago, Ani said:

No. You remove the barriers eventually you get parity. 
 

If you flip it round and say we want the best people on our Board but we are missing out because people from the BAME community are not applying. Would you do something about it ? 
 

 

If it’s at 5% now then I think it’s about right, I think that’s fair representation, 14% is for the birds 

Whilst the BAME population in this country currently make up 14% of the population, half of them weren’t born here, most have come here in the last 10-20 years (many of which on a VISA to work in the NHS, not to be on the board of British Sport or a FTSE 100 company) 

If you look at any board, they are made up of generally much older people who will have begun their careers in the 80’s and 90’s. It takes a lifetime of work to get to board level. If you look at the 1991 census the % of the population that identified as BAME was 5% so I think that’s about right. In 30 years time, boards will be made up of people starting their careers now, so in 2050 i’d expect BAME to make up circa 14% of boards. Problem is, by that point the BAME population will probably be 30% of the population and we will beat ourselves up for systemic racism again. You’ll always chase your tail as long as the % of population is increasing as dramatically as it has done 

[Ani]

1 minute ago, royal white said:

“So how is this working with blacks in sports” and you’ve used an Asian cricketer who has said he’s been racially abused and brought into the topic black lads getting pulled in cars. 

damn fine examples! 🤦‍♂️

Rudy who is black and is a coach has touched on the coaching subject. 

I take it you're just fishing now 
 

No. 
black sportsmen getting stopped is part of the issue that causes divide it has been raised as part of BLM hence relevance to the thread. 
 

You are clearly happy that everything is fine in the world of sport. Rudy who as you say is black and involved in sports started the thread so clearly he sees some issues. 
All the players who have raised this and have started taking a knee clearly had concerns. (Please note I said started - I agree there will be some who are doing it for a quiet life). 
Do I think there is potential race war coming in this country over the issue. No. Do I think it is strange that the focus seems to be totally on black rather than other races Yes. 
I am happy that if by taking a knee players are helping people question their attitude to race that it might help and reduce any form of racism. If that means I have an extra 5 seconds to wait before a game starts I can live with the inconvenience. 
The interesting one will be when live games start when some fans boo or chant over this how outraged some people will get. The irony of condemning someone for protesting against BLM would be incredibly ironic. 

[birch-chorley]

7 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I mean Asian people living in this country. Plenty are interested in football, plenty play five-a-side, etc.

Yet hardly, if any, go on to become professional footballers. I find it hard to believe that none of them want to.

I don’t believe that they don’t want to, I just think they are at a physical disadvantage for certain sports, football being one 

[royal white]

7 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I mean Asian people living in this country. Plenty are interested in football, plenty play five-a-side, etc.

Yet hardly, if any, go on to become professional footballers. I find it hard to believe that none of them want to.

Probably thousands want to, I wanted to but wasn’t good enough. There are a lot good enough to play cricket but no one complains about that. 
 

 

[royal white]

1 minute ago, Ani said:

No. 
black sportsmen getting stopped is part of the issue that causes divide it has been raised as part of BLM hence relevance to the thread. 
 

You are clearly happy that everything is fine in the world of sport. Rudy who as you say is black and involved in sports started the thread so clearly he sees some issues. 
All the players who have raised this and have started taking a knee clearly had concerns. (Please note I said started - I agree there will be some who are doing it for a quiet life). 
Do I think there is potential race war coming in this country over the issue. No. Do I think it is strange that the focus seems to be totally on black rather than other races Yes. 
I am happy that if by taking a knee players are helping people question their attitude to race that it might help and reduce any form of racism. If that means I have an extra 5 seconds to wait before a game starts I can live with the inconvenience. 
The interesting one will be when live games start when some fans boo or chant over this how outraged some people will get. The irony of condemning someone for protesting against BLM would be incredibly ironic. 

We will soon see how much players are really behind this then. And we will see how much of it was done because it was “the thing to do”

[Ani]

1 minute ago, birch-chorley said:

If it’s at 5% now then I think it’s about right, I think that’s fair representation, 14% is for the birds 

Whilst the BAME population in this country currently make up 14% of the population, half of them weren’t born here, most have come here in the last 10-20 years (many of which on a VISA to work in the NHS, not to be on the board of British Sport or a FTSE 100 company) 

If you look at any board, they are made up of generally much older people who will have begun their careers in the 80’s and 90’s. It takes a lifetime of work to get to board level. If you look at the 1991 census the % of the population that identified as BAME was 5% so I think that’s about right. In 30 years time, boards will be made up of people starting their careers now, so in 2050 i’d expect BAME to make up circa 14% of boards. Problem is, by that point the BAME population will probably be 30% of the population and we will beat ourselves up for systemic racism again. You’ll always chase your tail as long as the % of population is increasing as dramatically as it has done 

Ok. So you are saying having a target is ok as long as it is the right target ? We discussed this previously and I agreed you made some fair points. So to be clear I am not in favour of walking into every Board room in the country tomorrow and demanding every 6 th seat goes to someone passed purely on their race. 
I am not sure I agree with your time scales but think we are saying the same thing that we need to work to eradicate the various barriers that are stopping equal representation so everyone gets a fair opportunity. Not sure we would agree on how and how quickly we get there but the principle is clear. 

[Ani]

2 minutes ago, royal white said:

We will soon see how much players are really behind this then. And we will see how much of it was done because it was “the thing to do”

Yes. The world is literally in little bubbles at the moment as that changes it will be interesting to see what happens. 
In the F1 drivers not taking a knee has been respected. 
You have to admire the convictions of anyone taking a stand against opinion especially when they know the reaction it will have. Not wearing a shirt with a poppy is a good example not sure posing in a balaclava pretending to teach history works as well.