Equality in sport

[birch-chorley]

33 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Can you share the sources for all these stats?

Welfare...

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/benefits/state-support/latest
 

Get more income related benefits than white (per head) 

Edited September 15, 2020 by birch-chorley

[Youri McAnespie]

White privilege = black footballers Raheem Sterling and Jay Bothroyd get weapon tattoos and get completely castigated whereas white actor Edward Norton delights in covering his body in Nazi insignia and he gets numerous Oscar nods and roles in highly paid Marvel movies...

Edited September 15, 2020 by Youri McAnespie

[Youri McAnespie]

That ain't gammon either - gammon is cured.

[Kane57]

58 minutes ago, Youri McAnespie said:

White privilege = black footballers Raheem Sterling and Jay Bothroyd get weapon tattoos and get completely castigated whereas white actor Edward Norton delights in covering his body in Nazi insignia and he gets numerous Oscar nods and roles in highly paid Marvel movies...

Erm I hope this is one of those fishing things, otherwise someone needs to realise that American History X wasn't a documentary

[Rudy]

3 hours ago, ZicoKelly said:

I don't have any

Like a dagger, a dagger to my heart Zico

[Zico]

4 minutes ago, Rudy said:

Like a dagger, a dagger to my heart Zico

Now you know how it felt when you dissed my cowboy boots

[Rudy]

1 minute ago, ZicoKelly said:

Now you know how it felt when you dissed my cowboy boots

Cowboys Lives Matter

[Mantra]

1 hour ago, birch-chorley said:

The theory that ‘white privileg’ is evident in all aspects of the system I fundamentally disagree with. Education, Healthcare, welfare - not a chance, it’s a level playing field for me. Justice, your back onto the stop and search stuff but then again that’s disproportionate as much against males and young people as it is against non whites (is our justice system sexist and ageist then?) 

I just don’t see why this cause needs supporting at sporting events every single week for ever more, completely out of proportion to the size of the issue for me. Do it once a year like a lot of the other stuff and I’m fine with it 

If we are going to protest about something every single week forever more then let it be something much more serious and substantial like climate change 

I think you're taking the "evident in all aspects" too literally, for lack of a better term.

It's about history and its influence on current society. Historically (in this country and others) blacks/gays/women etc. (essentially anyone that's not a straight white male), have had issues with equality and the "theory" is that this has a lasting effect that still causes issues today and that's not obvious because racism isn't as blatant as it once was. Therefore, people are trying to raise awareness because it is a "less visible" issue. Much like mental health, just because someone is suffering doesn't necessarily mean it's obvious or plain to see.

Also - the taking a knee and BLM symbols have only been part of sporting events over the last few months, when did it become every single week forever more? It's a hot topic and they say strike while the iron's hot. What's so wrong with footballers raising awareness of an issue for 30 seconds before kickoff, or wearing a T-shirt? It's not like you have to pay money to a black charity to watch the game.

I get what you're trying to say that it's not as big an issue as people think so why is sport making it out to be. But plenty would disagree and say it's a bigger issue than you think and if they've lived through these issues maybe give them a chance to have a moment in the spotlight. If you disagree then fine but they're not trying to take rights away from white people, they're trying to empower those that are less fortunate and perhaps need attention bringing to their cause because it isn't taken as seriously as they feel it should be.

[Youri McAnespie]

16 minutes ago, Kane57 said:

Erm I hope this is one of those fishing things, otherwise someone needs to realise that American History X wasn't a documentary

I'm not stupid, I know that was a filum, however life imitates art, Norton (pictured below) has real ones in his real life...they get covered with make-up for his now infrequent roles, being blackballed for his beliefs.

However now Harvey Weinstein is banged up and his brother's name is mud expect to see Herr Norton (pictured below) back on screen on a regular basis from now on...

[Kane57]

OK I'm with you now. 

 

[birch-chorley]

25 minutes ago, Mantra said:

I think you're taking the "evident in all aspects" too literally, for lack of a better term.

It's about history and its influence on current society. Historically (in this country and others) blacks/gays/women etc. (essentially anyone that's not a straight white male), have had issues with equality and the "theory" is that this has a lasting effect that still causes issues today and that's not obvious because racism isn't as blatant as it once was. Therefore, people are trying to raise awareness because it is a "less visible" issue. Much like mental health, just because someone is suffering doesn't necessarily mean it's obvious or plain to see.

Also - the taking a knee and BLM symbols have only been part of sporting events over the last few months, when did it become every single week forever more? It's a hot topic and they say strike while the iron's hot. What's so wrong with footballers raising awareness of an issue for 30 seconds before kickoff, or wearing a T-shirt? It's not like you have to pay money to a black charity to watch the game.

I get what you're trying to say that it's not as big an issue as people think so why is sport making it out to be. But plenty would disagree and say it's a bigger issue than you think and if they've lived through these issues maybe give them a chance to have a moment in the spotlight. If you disagree then fine but they're not trying to take rights away from white people, they're trying to empower those that are less fortunate and perhaps need attention bringing to their cause because it isn't taken as seriously as they feel it should be.

I know they aren’t trying to take rights away from white people but it’s a slippery slope towards positive discrimination and I’m against that. I certainly don’t think Black people will have had it any harder than Chinese or Indian British people so why just focus on descrimination against Black people, bizarre really, especially as it’s been every sporting event for months. Then again Chinese and Indian British are outperforming white British in almost every measure so if the systems rigged in favour of white people then we are doing a shit job of rigging it. 

It’s quite clear that the BLM movement believe that racism is prevalent in the British system ‘systemic racism’. The biggest parts of the system are Welfare, Education, Healthcare and Justice. I believe that in 2020 all of these areas don’t discriminate based on race and thus the theory that white people are privileged ahead of black people for the key building blocks of society is bollocks 

I think far too much is read into blanket statistics without any thought behind it. A black person is more likely to be stopped and searched than a white person and that’s a sign of racism apparently. However a man is 10 times more likely to be stopped and searched than a women, does that mean the system is sexist? Under 30’s are ten times more likely to be pulled than over 30’s, is the system ageist? 

i’m all for a protest about equality but don’t just focus on one very small minority, broaden it up at least. This seems like it’s going on for far longer than any previous protest, massively disproportionate to me. 

[Zico]

2 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

Do it once a year like a lot of the other stufff we are going to protest about something every single week forever more then let it be something much more serious and substantial like climate change 

Did you not see the gammon reaction to Greta Thunberg?

[birch-chorley]

3 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

Did you not see the gammon reaction to Greta Thunberg?

I’m not defending Gammon reactions, I just don’t think our system is inherently racist 

I don’t recall sports people supporting Greta Thunberg's cause in nearly all events for months (although I do think climate change is a much greater issue than discrimination of a minority of the minorities) 

 

[Zico]

8 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

I’m not defending Gammon reactions, I just don’t think our system is inherently racist 

I don’t recall sports people supporting Greta Thunberg's cause in nearly all events for months (although I do think climate change is a much greater issue than discrimination of a minority of the minorities) 

 

My point was If they did it'd probably get a similar, mixed reaction, and folk who don't care much for climate change would be furious

[birch-chorley]

Just now, ZicoKelly said:

My point was If they did it'd probably get a similar, mixed reaction, and folk who don't care much for climate change would be furious

I’m sure it probably would annoy plenty after a while 

Be a refreshing change though, at least for the first two months 

[Zico]

42 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

I’m sure it probably would annoy plenty after a while 

Be a refreshing change though, at least for the first two months 

Aye, folk don't like being preached to about things they don't think is a problem for them 

[birch-chorley]

9 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

Aye, folk don't like being preached to about things they don't think is a problem for them 

I think most would agree that the climates fucked and that effects us all, apart from the odd climate change denyer 

Black people harping on for months that they have it harder than any other race, put the violins away please 

[Mantra]

7 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

I think most would agree that the climates fucked and that effects us all, apart from the odd climate change denyer 

Black people harping on for months that they have it harder than any other race, put the violins away please 

It's not a contest though.

Climate change affecting everyone doesn't mean that every other issue is secondary. Maybe in general politics for what should be prioritised I would agree with you but we're specifically talking about equality in sport here. 

The players/leagues aren't all harping on saying "black people have it harder than any other race", in fact I don't think anyone rational is saying that at all. If you have an issue with the people that are making every little thing seem racist then sure go argue with them but you won't get anywhere because you have polarised opinions.

What the players/leagues are saying is - "look at these recent events, everyone thinks racism isn't an issue anymore but quite clearly it still exists in sport and in general life too. Let's acknowledge it and raise awareness and think more carefully about what problems we have in society and sport and how we can address them. eg. if you hear someone in a football crowd saying "fuck off you black c***" Don't ignore it, report it or stand up to it. Obviously that's an extreme example but there's also issues with number of black managers/coaches/pundits compared to the number of black players on a football pitch. Only the other day Neymar accused an opposition player of racially abusing him.

Personally I think people get carried away with football, even if they're not racist internally, people get very tribal and defensive over their teams and say things they wouldn't normally say if they weren't at the football or had a few drinks. Where else can you verbally abuse people (racially or not) at full volume with no consequences?

Racism is a current issue in football. I think a lot of people thought it was a non-issue until recently when fans were caught on camera saying racial slurs, media outlets making headlines about black players and representing them totally differently to white players doing the exact same thing. Also the Premier League is global, so it's not just saying it to English fans but to people from different nations. Italy has one of the worst racism problems in football and I bet a lot of Italians watch the Premier League.

If football teams and fans were causing as much damage to the environment as oil companies or animal agriculture then maybe we would have more climate focused protests during matches. But the issue of racism in sport is a big one, because like it or not there's actually a lot of knuckle draggers around and their views reflect badly on the rest of us.

[bolty58]

11 hours ago, DazBob said:

Just wait for the outrage on here when the players decide to bend over before kick-off in support of the gays, and their movement known as BUM - Benders and Unsures Matter

 

Anyway, stop talking about it.  it's all a myth, there are no problems with racism in this country.  Talking about it only turns it into a problem.

FFS Spaznob. Is this all you have these days?

[birch-chorley]

6 hours ago, Mantra said:

It's not a contest though.

Climate change affecting everyone doesn't mean that every other issue is secondary. Maybe in general politics for what should be prioritised I would agree with you but we're specifically talking about equality in sport here. 

The players/leagues aren't all harping on saying "black people have it harder than any other race", in fact I don't think anyone rational is saying that at all. If you have an issue with the people that are making every little thing seem racist then sure go argue with them but you won't get anywhere because you have polarised opinions.

What the players/leagues are saying is - "look at these recent events, everyone thinks racism isn't an issue anymore but quite clearly it still exists in sport and in general life too. Let's acknowledge it and raise awareness and think more carefully about what problems we have in society and sport and how we can address them. eg. if you hear someone in a football crowd saying "fuck off you black c***" Don't ignore it, report it or stand up to it. Obviously that's an extreme example but there's also issues with number of black managers/coaches/pundits compared to the number of black players on a football pitch. Only the other day Neymar accused an opposition player of racially abusing him.

Personally I think people get carried away with football, even if they're not racist internally, people get very tribal and defensive over their teams and say things they wouldn't normally say if they weren't at the football or had a few drinks. Where else can you verbally abuse people (racially or not) at full volume with no consequences?

Racism is a current issue in football. I think a lot of people thought it was a non-issue until recently when fans were caught on camera saying racial slurs, media outlets making headlines about black players and representing them totally differently to white players doing the exact same thing. Also the Premier League is global, so it's not just saying it to English fans but to people from different nations. Italy has one of the worst racism problems in football and I bet a lot of Italians watch the Premier League.

If football teams and fans were causing as much damage to the environment as oil companies or animal agriculture then maybe we would have more climate focused protests during matches. But the issue of racism in sport is a big one, because like it or not there's actually a lot of knuckle draggers around and their views reflect badly on the rest of us.

If taking the knee is about equality in sport, then I’d suggest that we already have equality, in terms of its the best person for the job no matter what your skin colour 

If it’s about racist abuse from crowds then fair enough, of course racial abuse is still an issue that needs tackling 

However I was of the impression that this protest goes further than that, it’s trying to say that racism is systemic in society as a whole. A guardian journalist here seems to be making that point anyway....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/13/black-lives-matter-sports-underlying-failure-racism

‘And so, here we are: where a Premier League so allergically hostile to the discourse of politics, ethics and human rights that it allowed clubs to be purchased by nation states now feels obliged to align itself publicly against systemic racism‘

If the UK system (healthcare, Education, Welfare & Justice) favours whites over non whites then I will show my arse 

Edited September 16, 2020 by birch-chorley

[Zico]

4 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

If taking the knee is about equality in sport, then I’d suggest that we already have equality, in terms of its the best person for the job no matter what your skin colour 

If it’s about racist abuse from crowds then fair enough, of course racial abuse is still an issue that needs tackling 

However I was of the impression that this protest goes further than that, it’s trying to say that racism is systemic in society as a whole. A guardian journalist here seems to be making that point anyway....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/13/black-lives-matter-sports-underlying-failure-racism

‘And so, here we are: where a Premier League so allergically hostile to the discourse of politics, ethics and human rights that it allowed clubs to be purchased by nation states now feels obliged to align itself publicly against systemic racism‘

If the UK system (healthcare, Education, Welfare & Justice) favours whites over non whites then I will show my arse 

you keep repeating this, and fair enough, but, I reckon it's not just about that - as in, why players are taking the knee- they will have their reasons, and their reasons may differ - but effectively it's a worldwide stance to say enough is enough and let's strive for positive change and leave the neanderthal mindset behind

personally, I reckon most PL players are taking the knee in support of their team mates, like Zaha, who endure racism via social media on a regular basis, they will have seen it, and seen how it affects him and other players

if they want to stand up for him, then that's fine by me

personally, I don't think it will make that much difference, but 30 seconds of bending the knee and saying "fuck you" to the racists, shouldn't really bother anyone, except those it's aimed at

it'll probably only encourage them anyway, as shown by the reaction to that dance troupe on ITV

until racism can be combatted, let those affected by it stand up to it

[birch-chorley]

17 minutes ago, ZicoKelly said:

you keep repeating this, and fair enough, but, I reckon it's not just about that - as in, why players are taking the knee- they will have their reasons, and their reasons may differ - but effectively it's a worldwide stance to say enough is enough and let's strive for positive change and leave the neanderthal mindset behind

personally, I reckon most PL players are taking the knee in support of their team mates, like Zaha, who endure racism via social media on a regular basis, they will have seen it, and seen how it affects him and other players

if they want to stand up for him, then that's fine by me

personally, I don't think it will make that much difference, but 30 seconds of bending the knee and saying "fuck you" to the racists, shouldn't really bother anyone, except those it's aimed at

it'll probably only encourage them anyway, as shown by the reaction to that dance troupe on ITV

until racism can be combatted, let those affected by it stand up to it

It seems it means different things to different people then, for you it’s about Neanderthal racist abuse, no issue with that 

For many others, including the guy writing the piece in the Guardian it’s much more, it’s about racism in the fabric of our society that means the dice are loaded in the favour of white people and are against Black People. For those that think this is the case, I’m calling bullshit

Thats why I would prefer to see the kick it out campaign ahead of a BLM / Taking the knee in British football. It’s a much clearer message 

[bwfc2003]

22 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

It seems it means different things to different people then, for you it’s about Neanderthal racist abuse, no issue with that 

For many others, including the guy writing the piece in the Guardian it’s much more, it’s about racism in the fabric of our society that means the dice are loaded in the favour of white people and are against Black People. For those that think this is the case, I’m calling bullshit

Thats why I would prefer to see the kick it out campaign ahead of a BLM / Taking the knee in British football. It’s a much clearer message 

Agree with that , as it removes any connections to the Neanderthall element of BLM movement who think it is OK to terrorise white people and loot shops/businesses in USA

[Mantra]

4 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

If taking the knee is about equality in sport, then I’d suggest that we already have equality, in terms of its the best person for the job no matter what your skin colour 

If it’s about racist abuse from crowds then fair enough, of course racial abuse is still an issue that needs tackling 

However I was of the impression that this protest goes further than that, it’s trying to say that racism is systemic in society as a whole. A guardian journalist here seems to be making that point anyway....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/13/black-lives-matter-sports-underlying-failure-racism

‘And so, here we are: where a Premier League so allergically hostile to the discourse of politics, ethics and human rights that it allowed clubs to be purchased by nation states now feels obliged to align itself publicly against systemic racism‘

If the UK system (healthcare, Education, Welfare & Justice) favours whites over non whites then I will show my arse 

From that article, I think this is the crux of our disagreement perhaps:

"Indeed, one of the great achievements of the Black Lives Matter movement has been to expose how racism operates in its totality: how an economy built on white exploitation and a self-image built on white supremacy generates white boardrooms and white administrations, how racism sustains itself through the nudge and the wink as much as the assault and the insult."

I'm guessing you disagree with that statement, whereas I think it's something worth considering.

I get what you're saying I just think you're looking at it a bit too cynically. Is a black person going to be rejected healthcare, education, welfare and justice just because they're black? Most likely not.

But does the status quo of society mean that there's more challenges/issues in these institutions for black people than white? I think so.

http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/The School Report.pdf

This is an interesting report, not that I think you should read it all but it does raise some good points. 

eg.

...in many areas funding has been cut or withdrawn entirely; and all dedicated programmes to support the recruitment and retention of Black and minority ethnic (BME) teachers have been cancelled (Gillborn, 2014) condemned as a racist. For example, Philip Davies (a Conservative MP) used a Select Committee appearance to attack the Director General of the BBC, Tony Hall, when it was proposed to increase the representation of BME staff:

‘I personally consider it to be a racist approach’, Davies said, confronting Hall in a Commons culture, media and sport select committee session on the future of the BBC on Tuesday. ‘I think that the true racist sees everything in terms of race, or colour. Surely what we should be aiming to be is colour blind.’ (The Guardian, 2014) And there we have it, from a member of the ruling political party: ‘the true racist’ is defined by reference to someone trying to improve the representation of minority ethnic people in their workplace. This is the monsterisation of race equality: White people are portrayed as race victims; anti-racism is recast as racism; and the conditions are created for further and more extreme race inequity under the banner of ‘colour-blindness’.

 

 

 

[RUREADY2ROLL]

5 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

If taking the knee is about equality in sport, then I’d suggest that we already have equality, in terms of its the best person for the job no matter what your skin colour 

If it’s about racist abuse from crowds then fair enough, of course racial abuse is still an issue that needs tackling 

However I was of the impression that this protest goes further than that, it’s trying to say that racism is systemic in society as a whole. A guardian journalist here seems to be making that point anyway....

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/13/black-lives-matter-sports-underlying-failure-racism

‘And so, here we are: where a Premier League so allergically hostile to the discourse of politics, ethics and human rights that it allowed clubs to be purchased by nation states now feels obliged to align itself publicly against systemic racism‘

If the UK system (healthcare, Education, Welfare & Justice) favours whites over non whites then I will show my arse 

This. The Guardian should be shut down and all the journalists there charged with treason. There will always be people who dislike other races but we have gone too far in this country and what should be the best person for the job has gone; positive discrimination is rife and it is wrong. 

The kick it out movement was specific for the sport and very good but I detest everything about BLM including their stupid knee taking. I wont boo if we ever get back to watch games live but its ridiculous and players shouldn't be forced to do it