Equality in sport

[tkonion]

23 minutes ago, Underpants said:

I don't know. James McClean seems to think so. Where do you draw the line?

I wouldn't draw the line at an annual event that highlights the horror and futility of war and raises millions of pounds to help those that suffer as a result of it. 

 

 

[Underpants]

7 minutes ago, tkonion said:

I wouldn't draw the line at an annual event that highlights the horror and futility of war and raises millions of pounds to help those that suffer as a result of it. 

 

 

Aye, you wouldn't. Just pointing out what is one man's patriotic fund raiser is another man's rejection for all that it stands for. I was just addressing your original post on keeping politics out of sport. Keep it all out, or just keep the ones you are comfortable with in?

[mickbrown]

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

Taking the knee isn't about raising awareness of Racism in sport though.

Correct. Can’t believe for one minute folk think it is. 

[mickbrown]

1 hour ago, tkonion said:

I don't recall seeing a player booed for the colour of their skin in this country for a long, long time, when and where did you last witness it?

I’ve had two occasions at Wanderers where folk sat directly behind me were giving a player racist abuse. One old bloke on one occasion and three young lads on the other. 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

1 hour ago, tkonion said:

I don't recall seeing a player booed for the colour of their skin in this country for a long, long time, when and where did you last witness it?

There was one incident involving one of our players last season.

And then two reported incidents the season before, one concerning abuse from one of our own supporters and another from a supporter of the opposition. 

[Cheese]

2 hours ago, Underpants said:

I never said it was. I might be wrong but sport is where the knee thing started. 

What's your point then?

[Cheese]

25 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

Correct. Can’t believe for one minute folk think it is. 

A certain type of person doesn't like it when their prejudices are pointed out. Imagine going to the effort of turning your back on someone because they're trying to raise awareness of Racism for 5 seconds. Especially when that person plays for the team you support. It's mind-boggling.

[RUREADY2ROLL]

They can take a knee as much as they like but Black people get more than equality in the UK; just because they dont work for it doesnt mean we should give them positive discrimination. And they are more violent and do more serious crime than others and thats why police target them; not because the force is racist.

Totally behind kick it out and if they want to knee like idiots then its up to them but it would change my opinion.  BLM has pushed by race relations 20 years in this country and our media have been atrocious in backing them.

Anyway I wont boo or turn round when we get back in the grounds and they take the knee

[RUREADY2ROLL]

1 hour ago, Rudy said:

To be honest pal, I’m not for it being all the time because it can become a gimmick, I am glad it has happened in the first weekend so the issue isn’t forgotten, it needs to move on from here though and hopefully it’s remembered in time that footballers took a stand and did their part for equality. 

When you say 'so the issue isn't forgotten' WHAT issue are you talking about?

[Mannyroader]

The percentage of black coaches and managers in the sport is way below that of actual players. How that can be resolved is key; until it is I think the game is missing out.

[tomski]

5 hours ago, RUREADY2ROLL said:

They can take a knee as much as they like but Black people get more than equality in the UK; just because they dont work for it doesnt mean we should give them positive discrimination. And they are more violent and do more serious crime than others and thats why police target them; not because the force is racist.

Totally behind kick it out and if they want to knee like idiots then its up to them but it would change my opinion.  BLM has pushed by race relations 20 years in this country and our media have been atrocious in backing them.

Anyway I wont boo or turn round when we get back in the grounds and they take the knee

Just because they don’t work for it?

[Underpants]

6 hours ago, Cheese said:

What's your point then?

I wasn't making a point. I was asking a question.

[birch-chorley]

4 hours ago, Mannyroader said:

The percentage of black coaches and managers in the sport is way below that of actual players. How that can be resolved is key; until it is I think the game is missing out.

Do you think clubs aren’t recruiting coaches based on skin colour? Even though most are happy to recruit black players 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

49 minutes ago, birch-chorley said:

Do you think clubs aren’t recruiting coaches based on skin colour? Even though most are happy to recruit black players 

I think it's more likely unconcious bias and prejudice. It's easier for black footballers to prove they're good enough to play because it's a physical activity and can be seen by anyone. But it's more difficult to get an opportunity to prove worth as a manager because it's difficult to show demonstrate managerial skill without a track record. Managerial appointments are mostly subjective judgements, especially the appointment of managers in the first job, and it wouldn't surprise me if unfair stereotypes play into those decisions.

The lack of black managers itself isn't hard evidence that they aren't being given opportunities due to racism, but why would appetite and ambition to become a manager be split along the lines of skin colour?

[paulhanley]

11 hours ago, Rudy said:

Ive seen a lot of posts of people being annoyed at the consistency of players kneeling in support of equality in society, it’s not civil rights  It isn’t BLM it’s equality.

Equality.

so equality in sport.

No not people getting better privileges as a player and being recognised for his skill and not because he’s a different colour 

Football is the most watched sport in the world, if the world world tunes in to watch Rashford, Kane, Ronaldo, Messi and the moment before, one person see These players take a knee and that provokes a thought, then it works. 

You can’t stop talking about issue because you’re tired of seeing it

If you’re tired of seeing black men protesting for equality imagine how much black men are tired of seeing injustice for equality 

it’s a small thing to do to raise awareness 

Feel free to delete this or move it but I  couldn’t sit back and not say anything 

Another browbeating attempt to force the woke agenda on to people.

The problem we have here is that the vocal minority thinks that the vast majority who don't wish to spend every waking hour taking about identity and hierarchies of victimhood must therefore be racists/sexists/transphobes and all the rest of it by default. 

It's not dissimilar to Stalinist Russia. You don't just have to support "the cause" as part of a monoculture that is intolerant of any other trains of thought. You have to keep proving your pure views by re-stating them endlessly and monotonously. Hectoring and lecturing. Piously claiming the moral high ground. Absolute certainty that anyone who doesn't virtue signal in the same manner is a heretic or pariah.

It's all very sinister. It often verges on the censorious. It is completely illiberal.

I'm glad to see plenty of people disagree with you. They are absolutely entitled to do so. Not only that but they've now got a pretty keen grip on the whole woke mentality.

 

[Rudy]

I’ve been a coach for about 12 years now and I’ll be honest, black coaches aren’t about, I do interviews and honestly I think iv only had one black candidate.

I think you will start to see more BAME coaches , but IMO it’s not because they don’t get the opportunities they simply aren’t there

[Rudy]

1 minute ago, paulhanley said:

Another browbeating attempt to force the woke agenda on to people.

The problem we have here is that the vocal minority thinks that the vast majority who don't wish to spend every waking hour taking about identity and hierarchies of victimhood must therefore be racists/sexists/transphobes and all the rest of it by default. 

It's not dissimilar to Stalinist Russia. You don't just have to support "the cause" as part of a monoculture that is intolerant of any other trains of thought. You have to keep proving your pure views by re-stating them endlessly and monotonously. Hectoring and lecturing. Piously claiming the moral high ground. Absolute certainty that anyone who doesn't virtue signal in the same manner is a heretic or pariah.

It's all very sinister. It often verges on the censorious. It is completely illiberal.

I'm glad to see plenty of people disagree with you. They are absolutely entitled to do so. Not only that but they've now got a pretty keen grip on the whole woke mentality.

 

Woke agenda?

Footballers now have the platform to raise awareness.

By doing this it’s creating discussion and provoking thoughts. 

[MickyD]

Maybe a black footballer doesn't have the ambition to stay on in the game ada a coach and therefore doesn't go seeking the qualifications. Or perhaps they have the ambition but not the work ethic required to seek the qualification. 

I've not looked into the requirements but id imagine these coaching badges wer hear players taking are a bit of work to do outside of training and playing time 

[paulhanley]

2 minutes ago, Rudy said:

Woke agenda?

Footballers now have the platform to raise awareness.

By doing this it’s creating discussion and provoking thoughts. 

And many people's thoughts don't chime with yours. That's 'diversity'. And it would be more 'inclusive' if people who don't agree with you or simply don't elaborate weren't written off as racists.

[bwfc2003]

7 minutes ago, Rudy said:

I’ve been a coach for about 12 years now and I’ll be honest, black coaches aren’t about, I do interviews and honestly I think iv only had one black candidate.

I think you will start to see more BAME coaches , but IMO it’s not because they don’t get the opportunities they simply aren’t there

How many black players go on to take there coaching badges which I presume is needed to become a coach/manager??

[Rudy]

1 minute ago, Mr Grey said:

In response to that, Mings and Sterling got abuse whilst away on England duty, some countries and mainly former eastern block do seem to be 20 years behind, the UK has made great strides and I would sooner concentrate on the positives, as a country we have tackled the issue superbly, other countries like Bulgaria and Serbia could learn a lot from us, I'm not disagreeing with your original post, you made some valid points, if we keep on debating it and it's there all the time, how is it supposed to go away.

Yeah and you will always have those countries and it’s deep rooted in them so there’s only so much you can do but this has been caused by what’s happened and continues to happen in America. 
I’ve said it before it’s the Morgan Freeman comments, stop referring to people as their skin colour and that will do a lot of equality.

[birch-chorley]

45 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I think it's more likely unconcious bias and prejudice. It's easier for black footballers to prove they're good enough to play because it's a physical activity and can be seen by anyone. But it's more difficult to get an opportunity to prove worth as a manager because it's difficult to show demonstrate managerial skill without a track record. Managerial appointments are mostly subjective judgements, especially the appointment of managers in the first job, and it wouldn't surprise me if unfair stereotypes play into those decisions.

The lack of black managers itself isn't hard evidence that they aren't being given opportunities due to racism, but why would appetite and ambition to become a manager be split along the lines of skin colour?

I don’t know if Black players have any more or less ambition to get into coaching / managerial roles. We had this debate on the other thread though and I believe Geography plays a key role here. Most Players are likely to return home when they stop playing, for a lot of Black is players that will be to another country, for the Black British players that will predominantly be London, with a bit of Manchester and Birmingham (80% of Black people in this country live in a few dozen square miles in London). 

If your a chairman of a lower league club in the North East, North West, South West etc etc then 1 in every 100 - 200 people in that area are Black. I can’t tell you how many of them are ex pro footballers who have done their badges and are willing to work for very little money to begin a new career as a coach in the lower leagues, but the pool is very small anyway. 

On the flip side, the black population in London is between 1 in 5 and 1 in 10, I would expect Black coaches to be better represented in clubs like Milwall, Barnet, Leyton Orient etc - if they do well there then you’d expect them to develop through and get offered better paid roles nationally that would be worth re locating their family for 

Clearly players at the top of the game generally don’t need to start at the very bottom. If you look at the most capped Black players for England (in order of caps according to wiki)... Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand, John Barnes, Sol, Heskey, Des Walker, Defoe, Sterling, Johnson, Ince, James, Kyle Walker, Walcott, Welbeck, Young, Rashford, Ali, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Oxe, Ian Wright, Dyer, Smalling, Viv Anderson, Rose, Lescott, Sturbridge, Lingard, Brown and Vassell 

The first thing that strikes you is the fact that most are either still playing or have recently retired. This is representative of the Black community in general in the U.K. (average age much younger than average white British). Of the older players a few have gone into media and done well (Wright, Rio etc) others have gone into management with mixed results (Ince, Sol, Barnes) 
 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by birch-chorley

[Rudy]

2 minutes ago, MickyD said:

Maybe a black footballer doesn't have the ambition to stay on in the game ada a coach and therefore doesn't go seeking the qualifications. Or perhaps they have the ambition but not the work ethic required to seek the qualification. 

I've not looked into the requirements but id imagine these coaching badges wer hear players taking are a bit of work to do outside of training and playing time 

They take years. From FA 1 to their UEFA licenses

Just now, bwfc2003 said:

How many black players go on to take there coaching badges which I presume is needed to become a coach/manager??

I know of 2 currently doing them, but it’s a minority. A mate of mine Heard Jesse Lingard say he wasn’t interested he’ll just make his money elsewhere. 
Id say stick to what you know for the career afterwards.

[bwfc2003]

1 minute ago, Rudy said:

They take years. From FA 1 to their UEFA licenses

I know of 2 currently doing them, but it’s a minority. A mate of mine Heard Jesse Lingard say he wasn’t interested he’ll just make his money elsewhere. 
Id say stick to what you know for the career afterwards.

Surely thats the main reason there are so few coloured coaches/managers in the game then rather than the Sol Campbells and John Barnes banging on about in equality

[Traf]

19 minutes ago, Rudy said:

I’ve been a coach for about 12 years now and I’ll be honest, black coaches aren’t about, I do interviews and honestly I think iv only had one black candidate.

I think you will start to see more BAME coaches , but IMO it’s not because they don’t get the opportunities they simply aren’t there

So, they're not being overlooked on the basis of skin colour, they're just not applying as often as white people?