Marc505 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I know it's geek niche and a longish read but this is really worth anyone's time for those who think just plonking a load of second hand F-16s into Ukraine would solve anything. Specifically interesting is how the actual nature of the war being fought negates the advantage they'd bring anyway, and the reluctance to let them have the really advanced weapons the F-16 could employ that they don't want falling into Russian hands. In the end, if you're going to take the time and money to just give them a dumbed down F-16, they may as well persist with what they've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter MickyD Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 16 minutes ago, Marc505 said: I know it's geek niche and a longish read but this is really worth anyone's time for those who think just plonking a load of second hand F-16s into Ukraine would solve anything. Specifically interesting is how the actual nature of the war being fought negates the advantage they'd bring anyway, and the reluctance to let them have the really advanced weapons the F-16 could employ that they don't want falling into Russian hands. In the end, if you're going to take the time and money to just give them a dumbed down F-16, they may as well persist with what they've got. But surely the President of the Ukraine knows this. He was filmed this week in UK where he handed medals out to the tank crews currently learning to drive and operate the tanks our army has gifted them. Driving and operating a tank is quite a bit different than a F16 fighter jet, even if it’s just a conversion course from whatever their pilots are flying. Besides, if all their fighter pilots come here to be converted, who’s flying their current fleet of planes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc505 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Just now, MickyD said: But surely the President of the Ukraine knows this. He was filmed this week in UK where he handed medals out to the tank crews currently learning to drive and operate the tanks our army has gifted them. Driving and operating a tank is quite a bit different than a F16 fighter jet, even if it’s just a conversion course from whatever their pilots are flying. Besides, if all their fighter pilots come here to be converted, who’s flying their current fleet of planes? Surely he does know this, and I think in a lot of cases so far they've asked for the absolute ceiling in terms of weapon types knowing they're probably not obtainable but it makes anything close to that level that they do get a bonus. I was thinking that myself, if they sent 2 squadrons worth of their best pilots away from the war for 3-6-12 months that surely can't be good. I think 5 years down the line, years (hopefully) after the war is over there's no doubt Ukraine will be operating F-16 or Gripen as normal but for now after reading an article like that I just can't see how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Cheese Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, MickyD said: But surely the President of the Ukraine knows this. He was filmed this week in UK where he handed medals out to the tank crews currently learning to drive and operate the tanks our army has gifted them. Driving and operating a tank is quite a bit different than a F16 fighter jet, even if it’s just a conversion course from whatever their pilots are flying. Besides, if all their fighter pilots come here to be converted, who’s flying their current fleet of planes? Air Forces don't operate on the principle of one pilot per jet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter MickyD Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, Cheese said: Air Forces don't operate on the principle of one pilot per jet. I’m sure you’ll know more about this subject than I do but a quick search for fighter pilot images says the signwriter must be busy if every change of shift means the off-going pilot’s name is painted over and the on-coming pilot’s name added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Cheese Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, MickyD said: I’m sure you’ll know more about this subject than I do but a quick search for fighter pilot images says the signwriter must be busy if every change of shift means the off-going pilot’s name is painted over and the on-coming pilot’s name added. So what if Captain Pete Mitchell is off sick? They just ground 'his' jet until he's well again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc505 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 It's extremely rare for a pilot to end up in a jet with his or her name on it, unless they're fairly senior rank. It's basically like picking up a pool car when they're assigned a jet before a flight. Often it's not even a pilots name under the canopy its ground or support staff who've had their name put on there as a reward for something they've done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Winchester White said: They won't bring forward their attack dates, they aren't ready yet and mud season is about to start. Boris shouting his mouth off about supplying planes, like we are going to hand over Typoons or F35's the fucking plonker. F16s from other European countries are what Ukraine wants and needs. They also need longer range missiles systems. We are apparently already training their pilots here on simulators, which tends to suggest we may well let them have some planes at some point. Experts suggest the Swedish Saab planes would be the ideal aircraft, but I'm sure that any supplied would be welcome; even if they're not at top spec, they'll be better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globaldiver Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 14 hours ago, Winchester White said: We have a war in Europe that could be catastrophic if Russia wins. We have never been involved so heavily in a war without a single casualty. Ukraine lives are dying for the hope of stability in Europe, IMO. Russia won’t win, just a matter of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 21 minutes ago, globaldiver said: Russia won’t win, just a matter of time. Hope you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 Do any other European countries have MiGs or something more familiar to Ukraine pilots? I am sure it was mentioned Poland had some? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Cheese Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, Winchester White said: Do any other European countries have MiGs or something more familiar to Ukraine pilots? I am sure it was mentioned Poland had some? They do, and their proposal was to send them to Ukraine and have their fleet back-filled with US aircraft. The US decided against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderlust Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) For the last 6 months the rhetoric in Russia has switched from "special operation" to war to rebuilding the Russki Mir country by country - which would include a whole bunch of states currently recognised as independent countries. The state has clamped down on anything other than their own state media and that includes online. It's all been used to claim that Russia itself is under attack from the West, that Russia is the "victim" and Ukraine is part of Russia (along with Moldova, Belarus etc) that are bogus states created by the West and therefore fair game. If you watch the RT broadcasts and news as I do, you'll see that anyone trying to talk sense is shut down and there have been increasing demands for nuclear war and preparing the public ground for it - or more accurately, calls for nuclear deployment without any consideration of the fact that Russia and the world in general would be destroyed. More than that, it's been argued "so what? Supposing the world does end? Who would want to live in a world without the Russian way of life anyway? Because that is what is under attack from by the West." Russians don't get to hear any other messages and "being under attack" is now embedded in the Russian psyche apart from the middle class wokes who are selected for interview by the Western media and are a huge minority in a predominantly impoverished agrarian society. OK it's sabre rattling (hopefully) and perhaps the West promising jets etc is a sabre rattling response? There seems to be very little dialogue or negotiation in the public realm - although it is surely happening behind the scenes. But even if the West armed Ukraine to the teeth and they manage to resist the upcoming onslaught, would that do any good anyway given the feeling in Russia? There's no way they'd accept any form of defeat and let's be honest - their only options in that scenario are to go nuclear or depose the Putin regime and sue for peace. And given the propaganda campaign and the police state I'd be surprised if that happened as a people's movement. Even a top level coup is unlikely seeing that all the power brokers and generals that could do it are hand picked friends of Putin anyway. Ukraine is going to get destroyed one way or another IMO - well it's half destroyed already. A protracted war will just mean it will be bombed into the ground - and a radioactive landmass would give Russia the no man's land buffer zone it would probably accept so I wouldn't completely rule out nuking Kiev just yet. Edited February 9, 2023 by Wanderlust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderlust Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Margarita Simonyan - the Head of Russian TV - speaking on her popular nationally broadcast evening show talks about death in a nuclear war: “But there is no chance to escape death. The difference in 10, 20, 30 years is really not that big. From the standpoint of the universe, it’s not that big. It’s not certain which is a better way to die” Her mother then says: “...people all over the world are losing their sons and daughters to war. I decided that if it’s my daughter’s fate to die this way, then I’ll comfort myself by being proud of my daughter, that she died for her Motherland’ [audience applauds, Simonyan blows a kiss to the camera] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Cheese said: They do, and their proposal was to send them to Ukraine and have their fleet back-filled with US aircraft. The US decided against it. I think they need to rethink that. I have just looked and Poland already have 48 F16s and have a load of F35s on order too so it's not like the US supplying Poland is anything new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 37 minutes ago, Winchester White said: I think they need to rethink that. I have just looked and Poland already have 48 F16s and have a load of F35s on order too so it's not like the US supplying Poland is anything new. I don't think that's the issue- Poland is a member of Nato after all. It's more a concern about the aircraft possibly being downed and info being gleaned by Putin's mob. Perhaps once pilots and ground crew are trained, they'll feel more confident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Cheese Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: I don't think that's the issue- Poland is a member of Nato after all. It's more a concern about the aircraft possibly being downed and info being gleaned by Putin's mob. Perhaps once pilots and ground crew are trained, they'll feel more confident. The proposal involved the transfer of Polish Mig-29s, which the Ukrainian Air Force already operates. Edited February 9, 2023 by Cheese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Spider Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 We train pilots out of RAF Anglesey for the following forces: Saudis Qataris UAE Kuwait hardly any British pilots are trained there anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Cheese said: The proposal involved the transfer of Polish Mig-29s, which the Ukrainian Air Force already operates. I'm aware of that. Which, in part was because the Americans (and others) are/were reluctant to let their own modern aircraft be used. The Polish offer was a way of perhaps getting round it, but it's easy to see how that might be viewed as the thin end of the wedge, especially once those Migs get used up. So it was a no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Cheese Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Spider said: We train pilots out of RAF Anglesey for the following forces: Saudis Qataris UAE Kuwait hardly any British pilots are trained there anymore. Valley isn't the only RAF Base that trains pilots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted February 9, 2023 Site Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2023 Both my brothers were stationed at Valley at one time or another, they train loads of overseas pilots but non more than RAF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderlust Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Spider said: We train pilots out of RAF Anglesey for the following forces: Saudis Qataris UAE Kuwait hardly any British pilots are trained there anymore. I was working in Qatar in the 70's and an Iranian jet landed in Doha military airport trying to surrender (during the revolution) and the pilot had to wait an hour before anyone on the ground would dare approach the plane. Pilot got out and was wandering around trying to find someone to surrender to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Wanderer Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 7 hours ago, Wanderlust said: I was working in Qatar in the 70's and an Iranian jet landed in Doha military airport trying to surrender (during the revolution) and the pilot had to wait an hour before anyone on the ground would dare approach the plane. Pilot got out and was wandering around trying to find someone to surrender to. Did you accept his surrender? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderlust Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 19 minutes ago, London Wanderer said: Did you accept his surrender? No but a Qatari mate told me that the ground staff were scared of not finding the appropriate Al Thani prince to take the headlines so they avoided contact with the Iranian until the right guy - who was off base - could be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 23 hours ago, globaldiver said: Russia won’t win, just a matter of time. I agree but at what cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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