Thatcher vs Scargill The Miners Strike

[MancWanderer]

Moved from the TV shows thread
 

Always fascinated me as I was a student in Sheffield at the time. Lefty student Union going pro Scargill and neighbours really struggling to feed kids whilst us privileged students boozing and not giving a fuck

So much came out of this…..

Did we need coal that much?

Did Scargill basically fuck up and hand it to Maggie on a plate?

Why can’t the police react against protests these days like they did at Orgreave?

Whatever happened to decent Labour politicians like them back in the day who fought for the common man and railed against the extremists?

 

[Rudy]

50 pager by midday

[leigh white]

https://youtu.be/kPIdRJlzERo

[Ani]

Can we not just link to last time we had the same debate about 6 weeks ago ? 

[miamiwhite]

I'll wait for Leigh White to comment in his true neutral stance 😃 

[Biggish Dave]

I was still at primary school during the strike - we used to have playground fights between Macgregor and Scargill fans, that was good fun.

[Breightmet Boy]

i watched it, im a big Maggie fan and loved how she wouldnt be bullied by Scargill and his cronies.   She played a belter, i hate how unions think theyve got so much power, so far up their own arses its unreal.  

[Ani]

52 minutes ago, Biggish Dave said:

I was still at primary school during the strike - we used to have playground fights between Macgregor and Scargill fans, that was good fun.

Be like that on here later. 

[gonzo]

No problem with trying to sort a sustainable energy source for the country and not being held to ransom by union bullies. 

However leaving towns and villages to die in the process was unforgivable.

[paulhanley]

Arthur thought he could defeat the democratically elected Government of the day. It had effectively happened once before with the miners (to Ted Heath). Picked on the wrong person this time! 

This is quite a difficult topic to discuss through 2021 lenses to be fair. Very different days, very different country.

Arthur was pretty much a communist, but he he was genuinely working class. I can't be 100 per cent sure what he makes of today's champagne socialist, metropolitan wokeists. But I can imagine. And Maggie would have thought the same. Something they can agree on at last.

[dusan nikolic]

41 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

Arthur thought he could defeat the democratically elected Government of the day. It had effectively happened once before with the miners (to Ted Heath). Picked on the wrong person this time! 

This is quite a difficult topic to discuss through 2021 lenses to be fair. Very different days, very different country.

Arthur was pretty much a communist, but he he was genuinely working class. I can't be 100 per cent sure what he makes of today's champagne socialist, metropolitan wokeists. But I can imagine. And Maggie would have thought the same. Something they can agree on at last.

In fairness Paul ,Scargill didn't pick on anyone in 84/85 it was the Government and the Coal Board who instigated the industrial action by immediately and without warning trying to  close 20 pits and putting 20,000 jobs on the line ( the actual figure was 75 pits which the government denied and accused Scargill of scaremongering and lo and behold when the 30 year government papers were released the figure was 75 ) , but what was Scargill to do other than call for action ( which is what Thatcher wanted and why she put Mcgregor in charge of the Coal Board .

Trade Union dominance is perhaps another subject but let's not change history by saying Scargill was the instigator of the Strike.

[paulhanley]

6 minutes ago, dusan nikolic said:

In fairness Paul ,Scargill didn't pick on anyone in 84/85 it was the Government and the Coal Board who instigated the industrial action by immediately and without warning trying to  close 20 pits and putting 20,000 jobs on the line ( the actual figure was 75 pits which the government denied and accused Scargill of scaremongering and lo and behold when the 30 year government papers were released the figure was 75 ) , but what was Scargill to do other than call for action ( which is what Thatcher wanted and why she put Mcgregor in charge of the Coal Board .

Trade Union dominance is perhaps another subject but let's not change history by saying Scargill was the instigator of the Strike.

He was in a permanent state of agitating for such action was old Arthur. It was in his genes. He was given his moment to strike (in both senses of the term) and he took it.

Those pits were uneconomic. If you want to argue about how whole communities were left to whither than I'm with you. But the taxpayer subsidising uneconomic pits made no sense and by and large its case proven ever since. And I'm no eco-zealot by the way.

I can still picture him now with his fist shaking while he delivered his speeches. Full of rhetoric and flourish. A real rabble-rouser. 

[dusan nikolic]

19 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

He was in a permanent state of agitating for such action was old Arthur. It was in his genes. He was given his moment to strike (in both senses of the term) and he took it.

Those pits were uneconomic. If you want to argue about how whole communities were left to whither than I'm with you. But the taxpayer subsidising uneconomic pits made no sense and by and large its case proven ever since. And I'm no eco-zealot by the way.

I can still picture him now with his fist shaking while he delivered his speeches. Full of rhetoric and flourish. A real rabble-rouser. 

He took his moment because the government were lying through their teeth to provoke such action . The subsidising was keeping 200,000 miners alone in work  let alone the thousands of jobs affiliated to mining . All these people paying taxes instead of claiming benefits , not forgetting the billions upon billions that policing the strike alone cost . Let's not forget Mrs T didn't mind subsidising certain things , the right to buy scheme ( giving away houses the taxpayer had paid for and leaving us now with a criminal shortage of rentable housing) and Tory Voting Farmers who seem to get by OK.

Edited June 1, 2021 by dusan nikolic

[MancWanderer]

11 hours ago, Ani said:

Can we not just link to last time we had the same debate about 6 weeks ago ? 

Must have missed that one. If it was in the politics thread I definitely did

Anyway, interesting programme. Thought Kinnock came across well. And I pretty much agree with gonzo. 

[Spider]

Tough decisions had to be made. Thatch made them.

She knew she was up against lads who were absolute dinosaurs.

It was necessary but she could probably have given them a bit more help than a truncheon in the teeth.

It was what it was.

[paulhanley]

12 minutes ago, dusan nikolic said:

He took his moment because the government were lying through their teeth to provoke such action . The subsidising was keeping 200,000 miners alone in work  let alone the thousands of jobs affiliated to mining . All these people paying taxes instead of claiming benefits , not forgetting the billions upon billions that policing the strike alone cost . Let's not forget Mrs T didn't mind subsidising certain things , the right to buy scheme ( giving away houses the taxpayer had paid for and leaving us now with a criminal shortage of rentable housing) and Tory Voting Farmers who seem to get by OK.

Subsidising things at Government expense is generally a very bad idea. It insulates industries from competition and the market. That leads to gross inefficiency, which sooner or later spells big, big trouble. Any economist will tell you that. It's basic stuff. 

I do agree with you on the benefits element and, as I say, leaving those communities to completely fend for themselves was a drag on the nation's finances when training and start-up funding would have saved so much grief.

I would also agree with you that she wanted to smash the unions. But they had more influence over Government policy than was right. This country revived economically in the 1980s - that is unarguable. And defeating union militancy was part of the job. It led to great business confidence and certainty and inward investment. 

Do I think every single pit was uneconomic? I guess a small number were viable. A small number may still have been viable to this day. As Arthur himself says - the technology exists now to make the whole process of burning coal at power stations inoffensive to the Thunberg radicals. 

What happened was a huge shame. The coalfields in Lancashire, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, South Wales, Durham, Scotland, Kent and other places were part of who we were for years. I remember the pit wheels on the skyline in Leigh and the surrounding area.  However if Maggie hadn't done what she did someone later would have done so - or the market would have done so. That skyline of colliery wheels would not exist now - Maggie or no Maggie.

[dusan nikolic]

33 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

Subsidising things at Government expense is generally a very bad idea. It insulates industries from competition and the market. That leads to gross inefficiency, which sooner or later spells big, big trouble. Any economist will tell you that. It's basic stuff. 

I do agree with you on the benefits element and, as I say, leaving those communities to completely fend for themselves was a drag on the nation's finances when training and start-up funding would have saved so much grief.

I would also agree with you that she wanted to smash the unions. But they had more influence over Government policy than was right. This country revived economically in the 1980s - that is unarguable. And defeating union militancy was part of the job. It led to great business confidence and certainty and inward investment. 

Do I think every single pit was uneconomic? I guess a small number were viable. A small number may still have been viable to this day. As Arthur himself says - the technology exists now to make the whole process of burning coal at power stations inoffensive to the Thunberg radicals. 

What happened was a huge shame. The coalfields in Lancashire, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, South Wales, Durham, Scotland, Kent and other places were part of who we were for years. I remember the pit wheels on the skyline in Leigh and the surrounding area.  However if Maggie hadn't done what she did someone later would have done so - or the market would have done so. That skyline of colliery wheels would not exist now - Maggie or no Maggie.

The butcher of the big hitting Mansfield area pits were Major and Heseltine,  those pits and certain collieries elsewhere could have carried on supplying the U.K instead of importing millions upon millions of tonnes yearly . 

Scargill's big flaw was not calling a national ballot and alienating the Notts Coalfield ( a very moderate area , who actually broke away from the N.U.M , won the strike for Thatcher and generally towed the line , for what good it did them).  

In my opinion the premature closure of a lot of these pits has probably cost Billions more than was ever saved by shutting them en Masse . I agree with you that these areas should have been helped economically and with a sound plan of investment for these remote villages and Towns . 

What are we left with in these areas , other than Vice and Crime and virtually no prospects for youngsters , all of this coming at a continuous economic cost .

The Pit Town I live in is a shadow of it's former self , although luckily the proximity to Nottingham and the M1 has seen some investment here jobs wise.

Obviously now we are in a different world with Climate Change etc , but at the End of the Strike the battle against the big union had been won , sadly the vengeful destruction of the industry and communities that followed was unforgivable. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by dusan nikolic

[paulhanley]

31 minutes ago, dusan nikolic said:

The butcher of the big hitting Mansfield area pits were Major and Heseltine,  those pits and certain collieries elsewhere could have carried on supplying the U.K instead of importing millions upon millions of tonnes yearly . 

Scargill's big flaw was not calling a national ballot and alienating the Notts Coalfield ( a very moderate area , who actually broke away from the N.U.M , won the strike for Thatcher and generally towed the line , for what good it did them).  

In my opinion the premature closure of a lot of these pits has probably cost Billions more than was ever saved by shutting them en Masse . I agree with you that these areas should have been helped economically and with a sound plan of investment for these remote villages and Towns . 

What are we left with in these areas , other than Vice and Crime and virtually no prospects for youngsters , all of this coming at a continuous economic cost .

The Pit Town I live in is a shadow of it's former self , although luckily the proximity to Nottingham and the M1 has seen some investment here jobs wise.

Obviously now we are in a different world with Climate Change etc , but at the End of the Strike the battle against the big union had been won , sadly the vengeful destruction of the industry and communities that followed was unforgivable. 

Well it wasn't just the mines, it was cotton and manufacturing generally. It is to be hoped that there is finally a focus on these communities and that Brexit will free us of a template that made it harder to bring about change. Boris needs it to happen to keep him in power. What stronger incentive could he have?

[dusan nikolic]

26 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

Well it wasn't just the mines, it was cotton and manufacturing generally. It is to be hoped that there is finally a focus on these communities and that Brexit will free us of a template that made it harder to bring about change. Boris needs it to happen to keep him in power. What stronger incentive could he have?

Your quite right it wasn't just the mines , she totally decimated virtually all of our major manufacturing capacity  putting millions out of work . But she did manage to get re-elected twice , in part thanks to dreadful opposition leaders.

Being a fellow brexiteer though I do hope we see shoots of a recovery in British based production again .

Edited June 1, 2021 by dusan nikolic

[blackleywhite]

When North Sea Gas runs out we'll be opening those seams up again worry not. Or pay France or Australia to do it for us like our power stations and trains. Jobs fucked.

[Not in Crawley]

13 hours ago, paulhanley said:

Arthur thought he could defeat the democratically elected Government of the day. It had effectively happened once before with the miners (to Ted Heath). Picked on the wrong person this time! 

This is quite a difficult topic to discuss through 2021 lenses to be fair. Very different days, very different country.

Arthur was pretty much a communist, but he he was genuinely working class. I can't be 100 per cent sure what he makes of today's champagne socialist, metropolitan wokeists. But I can imagine. And Maggie would have thought the same. Something they can agree on at last.

😆 dog with a bone springs to mind.

[paulhanley]

1 hour ago, Not in Crawley said:

😆 dog with a bone springs to mind.

Me and millions of others. And it ain't going away any time soon.

[Not in Crawley]

1 hour ago, paulhanley said:

Me and millions of others. And it ain't going away any time soon.

😄

[Tonge moor green jacket]

On 01/06/2021 at 22:25, blackleywhite said:

When North Sea Gas runs out we'll be opening those seams up again worry not. Or pay France or Australia to do it for us like our power stations and trains. Jobs fucked.

 Don't see it at all.

Becoming politically a big no no- the reaction to this potential mine in Cumbria says everything. 

More chance of investing in the creation of hydrogen system, together with offshore wind and other technologies.

[green genie]

1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

 Don't see it at all.

Becoming politically a big no no- the reaction to this potential mine in Cumbria says everything. 

More chance of investing in the creation of hydrogen system, together with offshore wind and other technologies.

The expense would be huge. We've been involved with companies looking to dewater the old Cornish tin mines and treating the water to be pumped out is horrendous. 

They're getting close to commercial lithium deposits though

 

Fusion will be along to save the planet in 20-30 years. Just need to get ripped off for electric cars then hydrogen fuel cells first

Edited June 4, 2021 by green genie