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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

England games


deane koontz
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1 hour ago, Ani said:

I have never once been abused on social media for being a white male, have had a bit when I say something stupid or that others disagree with. I have been called a 'traitor' 'democracy denier' and 'woke' for saying I did not and still do not understand the benefits of Brexit. 
I do not really follow your point above, if Tyrone Mings takes the knee and the gesture is aimed at highlighting amongst other things racism that he feels he has suffered, not sure it fits your interpretation. 
Think everyone knows associating with the BLM political party was a mistake early on, but harping back to that and ignoring the multitude of messages since is strange. 

Why is it strange? Its a message to stop discrimination against ALL & EVERYONE.

So each person that does it could be doing it for a different reason personal to them.

Because of that, it doesn't send out a clear message of why each person is doing it.

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2 hours ago, Ani said:

So you have ignored every message issued by the players about why they are taking the knee and instead added your own interpretation ?  YES. COMPLETELY.
Not sure why the England team would take the knee about a political issue that is solely (or 99%) an American issue, but good to know you are supportive of players making gestures on political issues.  NO I AM NOT. SIMPLY SAYING THAT IF THEY FEEL COMPELLED TO VIRTUE SIGNAL, CHANGE THE RECORD FFS.
 

Hope that clears it up for you. Before the smartarses get on to it, no, not shouting. Merely differentiating.

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25 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

Hope that clears it up for you. Before the smartarses get on to it, no, not shouting. Merely differentiating.

Thank you for literally highlighting the issue with your argument. You seem to think you know better than the people who are taking the knee why they are taking the knee. Despite any and all evidence to the contrary you stick to that view. 

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Jesus, this is a circular argument. Has anyone been persuaded to change their views over 12m of niggling.

I have not nbeen able to separate the gesture from the Marxist, racist & corrupt US organisation from where it began. If UK players want to do it, be my guest ... though it's clearly vacuous virtue signalling & being to under a degree of duress in some cases.

It will cease, eventually ... I wonder what, or who, will make that call ? It won't be following the eradication of racism because it exists, not least in the minds & lives of many black people who can be very racist against non-black people.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Dr. Feelgood said:

I have not been able to separate the gesture from the Marxist, racist & corrupt US organisation from where it began.

...despite the players repeatedly pointing out why they are doing it. You keep sticking your fingers in your ears if that makes you feel better about it.

One thing we agree on is very few have changed their stance on it, probably because there is only one way anyone's mind should be changed on this matter ... and gammons being gammons, well, they're usually quite stubborn. 

Edited by DazBob
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Dr. Feelgood said:

Jesus, this is a circular argument. Has anyone been persuaded to change their views over 12m of niggling.

I have not nbeen able to separate the gesture from the Marxist, racist & corrupt US organisation from where it began. If UK players want to do it, be my guest ... though it's clearly vacuous virtue signalling & being to under a degree of duress in some cases.

It will cease, eventually ... I wonder what, or who, will make that call ? It won't be following the eradication of racism because it exists, not least in the minds & lives of many black people who can be very racist against non-black people.

This 100%.  Racism exists and always will, no matter how much virtual signalling goes on. The rest of the world has moved on but not the gammons :) in FA headquarters or Dazbob. 

Edited by Mounts Kipper
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Virtue signalling must be one of the most tiresome phrases to ever enter the English lexicon. It's even more tiresome than people referring to a PM who consistently proves he couldn't give a fuck about the likes of us, by his first name like he's our pal.

Anyway, football on tonight innit? I think we'll play with a point to prove and win this, and also probably destroy Hungary at home next week too though I'm not so sure about the Italy game. 

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14 minutes ago, DazBob said:

...despite the players repeatedly pointing out why they are doing it. You keep sticking your fingers in your ears if that makes you feel better about it.

One thing we agree on is very few have changed their stance on it, probably because there is only one way anyone's mind should be changed on this matter ... and gammons being gammons, well, they're usually quite stubborn. 

The irony of someone not being able to move on from an opinion despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary but then calling others vacuous .

Unless he actually believes the players and manager pushing this are actually promoting a Marxist agenda. The initial links with the BLM political group was a mistake. Amazing how difficult some people find it to accept that and move on.  

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2 minutes ago, gonzo said:

It really does.

How does it if All players are doing it for different reasons personal to them?

It's a gesture to highlight discrimination against ALL people.

Or are you suggesting they all do it for one sole reason. Which would be to highlight racism against black people.... which isn't what " racism and discrimination against everyone" is.

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13 minutes ago, wanderer1984 said:

How does it if All players are doing it for different reasons personal to them?

It's a gesture to highlight discrimination against ALL people.

Or are you suggesting they all do it for one sole reason. Which would be to highlight racism against black people.... which isn't what " racism and discrimination against everyone" is.

He has given an example of how the message has helped his son. If it's aim is tackle discrimination in whatever form what is there that is wrong with that ? 
 

On the one hand the knee is too linked to BLM and on the other it is too general ? 
 

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14 minutes ago, Ani said:

He has given an example of how the message has helped his son. If it's aim is tackle discrimination in whatever form what is there that is wrong with that ? 
 

On the one hand the knee is too linked to BLM and on the other it is too general ? 
 

Nothing wrong with it if it represents everyone. But by doing that it becomes too general and irrelevant. Which is the point I'm making.

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Quote

Racism exists and always will, no matter how much virtual signalling goes on.

Let's not bother holding a minutes silence for terrorism victims because there will always be terrorists. 

Quote

How does it if All players are doing it for different reasons personal to them?

Let's sack off poppies then because that's not only remembering WW1 victims but also WW2 and fallen soldiers in ALL wars, therefore it's not a clear message as to who we're supporting.

Quote

I have not been able to separate the gesture from the Marxist, racist & corrupt US organisation from where it began. 

Let's boycott the Labour party for using red as its primary colour as it has Communist associations.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

They did "Kick It Out" for years which was essentially a less 'in your face' way of bringing the issue of racism into the consciousness of football supporters. Now the players are taking the knee as a sign of solidarity for a few seconds before each game. It's a well-intentioned message that 'racism is bad' if you're looking to overcomplicate that message then I don't really understand why.

If you want to call it virtue signalling then fair enough, I can actually understand the cynicism behind that line of thinking. But I still think it's just a pointless argument to make because at least it's making a positive and conscious effort to do something good, even if it's just to garner the favour of the population. Which I don't think it is in this case.

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Just now, wanderer1984 said:

Nothing wrong with it if it represents everyone. But by doing that it becomes too general and irrelevant. Which is the point I'm making.

Ok, I do not agree but respect that as an opinion. There are certain types of discrimination that are easier to see and understand and by trying to be all things to all men ( I mean people 😂) the message could become diluted. Personally I think including the wider spectrum ensures some groups do not get left behind is worth that risk.

But is difficult in a sporting context when you add 'trans' in there and argue who should be allowed to compete with who. 
But if in talking to kids about you introduce it using the most obvious which is race which you seem to agree they may get, I think it is easier to then explain how it also applies to sex,sexuality, age , disability etc etc rather than treating that as separate. 
Add if you discuss racism against certain sectors how do you ignore that sectors attitude to women, lesbians and gays etc ? It is minefield but if having players taking the knee helps provoke a sensible debate it is serving a purpose.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Feelgood said:

Jesus, this is a circular argument. Has anyone been persuaded to change their views over 12m of niggling.

I have not nbeen able to separate the gesture from the Marxist, racist & corrupt US organisation from where it began. If UK players want to do it, be my guest ... though it's clearly vacuous virtue signalling & being to under a degree of duress in some cases.

It will cease, eventually ... I wonder what, or who, will make that call ? It won't be following the eradication of racism because it exists, not least in the minds & lives of many black people who can be very racist against non-black people.

'Kin hell 😁

There's missing the point and then not even being on the same planet as the point.

Funny though.

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10 minutes ago, Mantra said:

Let's not bother holding a minutes silence for terrorism victims because there will always be terrorists. 

Let's sack off poppies then because that's not only remembering WW1 victims but also WW2 and fallen soldiers in ALL wars, therefore it's not a clear message as to who we're supporting.

Let's boycott the Labour party for using red as its primary colour as it has Communist associations.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

They did "Kick It Out" for years which was essentially a less 'in your face' way of bringing the issue of racism into the consciousness of football supporters. Now the players are taking the knee as a sign of solidarity for a few seconds before each game. It's a well-intentioned message that 'racism is bad' if you're looking to overcomplicate that message then I don't really understand why.

If you want to call it virtue signalling then fair enough, I can actually understand the cynicism behind that line of thinking. But I still think it's just a pointless argument to make because at least it's making a positive and conscious effort to do something good, even if it's just to garner the favour of the population. Which I don't think it is in this case.

To be fair it was less in your face because it had the funding of a one-legged donkey sanctuary in Blackpool. Given the money swashing around football the FA gave them very little (I think at one point they had three staff and an office above a shop on TCR or maybe Goodge Street) 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

To be fair it was less in your face because it had the funding of a one-legged donkey sanctuary in Blackpool. Given the money swashing around football the FA gave them very little (I think at one point they had three staff and an office above a shop on TCR or maybe Goodge Street) 

 

Also

Social media and technology has highlighted more grossly the problem of racism in football and so the response to that has in turn been more intense.

Edited by Mantra
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Just now, Mantra said:

I think that's besides the point slightly. 

Social media and technology has highlighted more grossly the problem of racism in football and so the response to that has in turn been more intense.

With all due respect, its complete inside the point. Racism in the game wasn't taken seriously enough (hence the slight nod to it with Kick It Out, but nothing really changing), and now the biggest asset the FA have (the senior men's England team) make it a central issue has completely changed the way its dealt with and its place on the footall, and social, agenda.

 

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2 hours ago, Ani said:

Thank you for literally highlighting the issue with your argument. You seem to think you know better than the people who are taking the knee why they are taking the knee. Despite any and all evidence to the contrary you stick to that view. 

Correct. Yes, I acknowledge that Colin Kipperdick was taking the knee well before the death of Saint George Floyd. I do believe however that the millions of re-enactments of same by those who feel the burning and seemingly hourly need to signal their virtuosity is more prompted by the latter rather than the former.

Nothing will shake me from this view just like nothing will shake me from the view that the catalyst for the Hillsborough disaster were the activities of pissed up and most likely ticketless Liverpool fans.

With this in mind, further debate on this subject seems pointless as you won't be swaying me.

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2 hours ago, DazBob said:

...despite the players repeatedly pointing out why they are doing it. You keep sticking your fingers in your ears if that makes you feel better about it.

One thing we agree on is very few have changed their stance on it, probably because there is only one way anyone's mind should be changed on this matter ... and gammons being gammons, well, they're usually quite stubborn. 

:rofl: FFS, I knew he couldn't resist. I had the eggs on standby.

Talk about a one trick pony.....................

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The continuing inability for people to separate the original Black Lives Matter message that started all this from any grifters who jumped on board to make financial and political gain on the back of the BLM movement will mean this keeps going round and round.

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11 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

:rofl: FFS, I knew he couldn't resist. I had the eggs on standby.

Talk about a one trick pony.....................

What trick is that?  Presumably using the term gammon?

I could justifiably use far more offensive terms in plenty of cases, but opt for the least offensive, because I'm nice like that. 😘

Anyway, Colin Kipperdick?  How old are you?? Lolz.

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16 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

The continuing inability for people to separate the original Black Lives Matter message that started all this from any grifters who jumped on board to make financial and political gain on the back of the BLM movement will mean this keeps going round and round.

It's not an inability.  It's a stubborn refusal to.

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