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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

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12 hours ago, Ani said:

Think people are over thinking the share thing, say club is worth 10 Twix's, 10 people own 2 fingers each.

Some else comes along and puts 1 Twix in, the club is now worth 11 Twix's, and everyone still has 2 fingers. 
 

You go from owning 10% to 9% , but it is of a bigger Twix pile. Imagine the shareholders get to approve the investment.

 

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12 hours ago, Ani said:

Think people are over thinking the share thing, say club is worth £10m, 10 people own £1m each.

Some else comes along and puts £1m in, the club is now worth £11m, and everyone still has £1m. 
 

You go from owning 10% to 9% , but it is of a bigger pie. Imagine the shareholders get to approve the investment.

Is it worth £11m though?

Whatever someone puts in, isn't necessarily the value that a buyer would be willing to pay.

Investments aren't risk free.

The fact that several share issues have been made though suggests to me that investors are comfortable with the risk level, and have confidence in FV and the way the club is managed.

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43 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Is it worth £11m though?

Whatever someone puts in, isn't necessarily the value that a buyer would be willing to pay.

Investments aren't risk free.

The fact that several share issues have been made though suggests to me that investors are comfortable with the risk level, and have confidence in FV and the way the club is managed.

The actual number is irrelevant, my point  as well as working for twixes, is that current shareholders get to approve the investment and must be comfortable that the new investment does not dilute their own value, either because it makes it more likely we get to the next level OR it staves off some type of financial meltdown , given as you say the new investors are comfortable putting money  in fair to assume it is the former.

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If you buy a club and hotel for 30m twixes, down the line you receive 8m my mums broken biscuits from the government.

Later the Swiss give you 6m  Toblerone a season  three seasons running.

Fans chip in with just over 5m from the pick and mix

How many twixes are remaining!!

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41 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

If you buy a club and hotel for 30m twixes, down the line you receive 8m my mums broken biscuits from the government.

Later the Swiss give you 6m  Toblerone a season  three seasons running.

Fans chip in with just over 5m from the pick and mix

How many twixes are remaining!!

if the Toblerones are used for paying for the chocolate and energy to make the twixes then the the worth is the same amount of twixes or even less twixes. However, if the toblerones are used for buying people who make better twixes, then you would have more twixes.

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29 minutes ago, nantwichwhite said:

if the Toblerones are used for paying for the chocolate and energy to make the twixes then the the worth is the same amount of twixes or even less twixes. However, if the toblerones are used for buying people who make better twixes, then you would have more twixes.

Meanwhile, the Dark Chocolate Bounty is no more. Taken-over by American owners who have decided to cease production. We can loan EU manufactured Kinder Eggs instead. Has the price of chocolate risen, or fallen ?

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Feelgood said:

Meanwhile, the Dark Chocolate Bounty is no more. Taken-over by American owners who have decided to cease production. We can loan EU manufactured Kinder Eggs instead. Has the price of chocolate risen, or fallen ?

Deservedly so. Any bounty is shocking and doesn't contribute positively to twixonomics.

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16 hours ago, Ani said:

Think people are over thinking the share thing, say club is worth £10m, 10 people own £1m each.

Some else comes along and puts £1m in, the club is now worth £11m, and everyone still has £1m. 
 

You go from owning 10% to 9% , but it is of a bigger pie. Imagine the shareholders get to approve the investment.

If only it were that simple Ani. It still depends on the value of each individual share, not the total amount invested. If each share for original owners was bought at £1 then clearly they have £1m shares each. If the share price has now fallen to 50p the new investor will have 2m shares for his £1m whilst the original investors shares are now worth only £500k! Likewise the company value falls as it is based on the value of the total shares in issue. You’re right though in that the issue of new shares has to be agreed by existing shareholders, usually at an AGM or EGM.

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32 minutes ago, Whitesince63 said:

If only it were that simple Ani. It still depends on the value of each individual share, not the total amount invested. If each share for original owners was bought at £1 then clearly they have £1m shares each. If the share price has now fallen to 50p the new investor will have 2m shares for his £1m whilst the original investors shares are now worth only £500k! Likewise the company value falls as it is based on the value of the total shares in issue. You’re right though in that the issue of new shares has to be agreed by existing shareholders, usually at an AGM or EGM.

Not sure I agree

But why are you assuming the price has dropped ? If the new investors are paying £1.5 per share, the value goes up.

So in year 1 , 10m shares at £1 = £10m

current 11m shares at £1.50 = £16.5m 

As I said given we were a basket case in year 1 and now are pushing for Championship , the club you would assume has gone up in value. I bet the whole squad in year 1 cost less than the proposed deal for Legohead with Bristol City. 

However we are not cash rich, FV have never claimed to be, so we raising cash via the bond but also investors putting cash in.

Of course the whole process and workings will technically be complicated but if the club is valued today at £10m and then someone invests £1m, that £1m becomes an asset so increases the value.  

The fact that existing share holders agree this  IMO means 1 of 2 things, the new investment is consolidating the existing shareholder value (as in the example above) OR we do not have money and need some to pay the bills , but not sure why the new investors would be chucking money in if that was the case. (Although fair enough to question why anyone invests in a football club) 

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24 minutes ago, Farnywhite said:

Seems far to long of a deal to be tied to we could be in the prem by then and the deal would be worth far more or have new owners that are tied to it 

Or, maybe, someone's been bright enough to have inserted 'ramping up' clauses covering this very thing. Coz, like, this is their job.

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On 23/11/2023 at 14:24, Dr. Feelgood said:

Or, maybe, someone's been bright enough to have inserted 'ramping up' clauses covering this very thing. Coz, like, this is their job.

Well we don’t know if they have or they haven’t but what no one can predict is what a premiership team sponsorship would be worth by 2031 the tv deals don’t run for that length of time so how it could be written into a deal now on guess work would be unlikely 

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3 minutes ago, Farnywhite said:

Well we don’t know if they have or they haven’t but what no one can predict is what a premiership team sponsorship would be worth by 2031 the tv deals don’t run for that length of time so how it could be written into a deal now on guess work would be unlikely 

I think its very, very likely all options are covered

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3 minutes ago, Farnywhite said:

Well we don’t know if they have or they haven’t but what no one can predict is what a premiership team sponsorship would be worth by 2031 the tv deals don’t run for that length of time so how it could be written into a deal now on guess work would be unlikely 

That's why GOOD Contract Lawyers get well paid.

It's not complex to stipulate ahead for changes in circumstances, upward or downward.

Assuming good will neither party will be seeking to rip the other off. That makes a big difference.

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On 23/11/2023 at 14:00, Ani said:

Not sure I agree

But why are you assuming the price has dropped ? If the new investors are paying £1.5 per share, the value goes up.

So in year 1 , 10m shares at £1 = £10m

current 11m shares at £1.50 = £16.5m 

As I said given we were a basket case in year 1 and now are pushing for Championship , the club you would assume has gone up in value. I bet the whole squad in year 1 cost less than the proposed deal for Legohead with Bristol City. 

However we are not cash rich, FV have never claimed to be, so we raising cash via the bond but also investors putting cash in.

Of course the whole process and workings will technically be complicated but if the club is valued today at £10m and then someone invests £1m, that £1m becomes an asset so increases the value.  

The fact that existing share holders agree this  IMO means 1 of 2 things, the new investment is consolidating the existing shareholder value (as in the example above) OR we do not have money and need some to pay the bills , but not sure why the new investors would be chucking money in if that was the case. (Although fair enough to question why anyone invests in a football club) 

That’s exactly my point Ani. Share prices go up and down all the time so you’re right if the shares have risen since the original 10 bought then they’ll have a bigger share for their £1m investment than the new buyer. It’s always the % holding of the total shares issued that’s key not the SP.

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Can some one confirm if this is true or not- we're not publicly listed, and therefore shares aren't available to buy and sell in that way.

As such, the shares have no official value, other than the amount of money paid in to acquire them.

This doesn't mean anything though, unless someone else wishes to make an offer for the club, or an interest in buying someone out for example. 

As such, the discussion about share price rising and falling is moot.

Right or bollocks?

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The business is worth what it's worth.

The number of shares simply divides that worth by however many there are.

Additional shares will simply dilute the initial price by the %'age of new shares.

If people flock to buy them that implies confidence both now & in the future. That will raise the ongoing share price.

I would expect, currently, confidence is pretty positive.

We are properly at least a tier 2 club, currently below that level but well placed to achieve the higher level.

That would bring in greater income via prize money, tv money and sales. Our typical player valuations would rise also.

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7 minutes ago, Dr. Feelgood said:

The business is worth what it's worth.

The number of shares simply divides that worth by however many there are.

Additional shares will simply dilute the initial price by the %'age of new shares.

If people flock to buy them that implies confidence both now & in the future. That will raise the ongoing share price.

I would expect, currently, confidence is pretty positive.

We are properly at least a tier 2 club, currently below that level but well placed to achieve the higher level.

That would bring in greater income via prize money, tv money and sales. Our typical player valuations would rise also.

Which is what I asked a while back. May be the case, but maybe not. That extra money that has gone in to buy new shares, could be buy new players, or improve infrastructure. To an outsider, that may raise the club's value, and raise share price.

But as I said, it's moot anyway, as the shares don't have a public value. I don't think.

Edited by Tonge moor green jacket
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On 23/11/2023 at 12:11, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Deservedly so. Any bounty is shocking and doesn't contribute positively to twixonomics.

I love you and practically every point you make . But I will happilly set on fire anyone that has a bad word to say about dark bounties.

Milk,  Honey , Mana, Nectar, Ambrosia all gifts from the Gods but not a patch on Dark Bounties. 

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