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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

This Seasons Fixtures


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3 hours ago, Dimron said:

What are you going to do with the extra time? The nearer it gets the more I'm dreading it... I'm on 4 days at the moment going down to 3 after the summer works. Wife was ready to stab me with the scissors on my day off last week, I'm going to end up going out like i'm off to work and sitting in a cafe somewhere making a cup of tea last for 3 hours 🙂

Into all sorts me mate. Besides the requirement for technical support (where coincidentally my lad is the service manager) at the drop of a hat as well as regular support for my successor, I spend time furthering the cause of walking football (and of course playing/training twice a week which I am also managing to maintain in Spain), lawn bowls with a surprisingly youthful bunch (30's and 40's), scooter related maintenance/riding - get thisen a beltin' man cave), bettering my Italian lingo and considering learning Spanish, involved with a nationally based punters club down under which involves significantly more than simply placing bets, regular power walking with the missus, reading - I've been catching up on all the classics which I had never read etc.

Quite frankly, I am not sure how I ever found time to work!

Every so often, some blissful solitude where I get to contemplate where the fluff in my navel comes from when 'er indoors heads off on a shopping exodus. You need this time to fulfil such vital functions as recharging your batteries/girding your loins ready for the battle against sinister elements on here etc. ;)

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5 hours ago, Benny The Ball said:

Hi Malcolm 

Am quite well read on football in this era , and had never seen this before 

As i understood it from 1898 onwards when the League was increased to 18 clubs the Football League adopted something called the "Fletcher System" to set the fixtures so as to avoid having clubs from the same City being at home on the same day ( Nottingham Sheffield, Liverpool & Manchester etc  ) and to give individual clubs the opportunity of maximising gate receipts and keep a regular income coming in. 

The thought that clubs set their own fixtures was news to me

I thought maybe 1908 was a one off , but having had a quick look, the Football League met at the end of May and the full fixtures were then published a couple of days later. All the fixtures you mention as being determined by the clubs cannot possibly be correct - they were all set by the League. You can see below the fixtures for the Christmas / New Year period, as published in early June.(extract below)

There were no fan friendly or money options - the fixtures were the fixtures ?  Unless you can enlighten me 

qexfuBD.jpg

 

  

 

The two Sheffield clubs came out well. Christmas Day and Boxing Day games against each other.

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5 hours ago, Benny The Ball said:

Hi Malcolm 

Am quite well read on football in this era , and had never seen this before 

As i understood it from 1898 onwards when the League was increased to 18 clubs the Football League adopted something called the "Fletcher System" to set the fixtures so as to avoid having clubs from the same City being at home on the same day ( Nottingham Sheffield, Liverpool & Manchester etc  ) and to give individual clubs the opportunity of maximising gate receipts and keep a regular income coming in. 

The thought that clubs set their own fixtures was news to me

I thought maybe 1908 was a one off , but having had a quick look, the Football League met at the end of May and the full fixtures were then published a couple of days later. All the fixtures you mention as being determined by the clubs cannot possibly be correct - they were all set by the League. You can see below the fixtures for the Christmas / New Year period, as published in early June.(extract below)

There were no fan friendly or money options - the fixtures were the fixtures ?  Unless you can enlighten me 

qexfuBD.jpg

 

  

 

He just basically called you a cunt @MalcolmW 

You going to stand for it? 

2ddee696995e0998d6514342cb95ac01_w200.gi

 

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On 25/06/2022 at 16:00, bolty58 said:

Into all sorts me mate. Besides the requirement for technical support (where coincidentally my lad is the service manager) at the drop of a hat as well as regular support for my successor, I spend time furthering the cause of walking football (and of course playing/training twice a week which I am also managing to maintain in Spain), lawn bowls with a surprisingly youthful bunch (30's and 40's), scooter related maintenance/riding - get thisen a beltin' man cave), bettering my Italian lingo and considering learning Spanish, involved with a nationally based punters club down under which involves significantly more than simply placing bets, regular power walking with the missus, reading - I've been catching up on all the classics which I had never read etc.

Quite frankly, I am not sure how I ever found time to work!

Every so often, some blissful solitude where I get to contemplate where the fluff in my navel comes from when 'er indoors heads off on a shopping exodus. You need this time to fulfil such vital functions as recharging your batteries/girding your loins ready for the battle against sinister elements on here etc. ;)

I think I need to think it through some more, I had some Utopian idea that me and the missus could do more together, she sometimes hardly sees me at weekends, I'm either mucking around in my lock up with my old cars and bikes or up the airfield (I own one ninth of a Cessna). I need to realise she is quite happy with me a as a little man who co-habits her house and walks her dog etc. 🙂

 

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13 hours ago, Dimron said:

I think I need to think it through some more, I had some Utopian idea that me and the missus could do more together, she sometimes hardly sees me at weekends, I'm either mucking around in my lock up with my old cars and bikes or up the airfield (I own one ninth of a Cessna). I need to realise she is quite happy with me a as a little man who co-habits her house and walks her dog etc. 🙂

 

Fuck me! That IS Utopia!

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On 25/06/2022 at 11:01, Benny The Ball said:

Hi Malcolm 

Am quite well read on football in this era , and had never seen this before 

As i understood it from 1898 onwards when the League was increased to 18 clubs the Football League adopted something called the "Fletcher System" to set the fixtures so as to avoid having clubs from the same City being at home on the same day ( Nottingham Sheffield, Liverpool & Manchester etc  ) and to give individual clubs the opportunity of maximising gate receipts and keep a regular income coming in. 

The thought that clubs set their own fixtures was news to me

I thought maybe 1908 was a one off , but having had a quick look, the Football League met at the end of May and the full fixtures were then published a couple of days later. All the fixtures you mention as being determined by the clubs cannot possibly be correct - they were all set by the League. You can see below the fixtures for the Christmas / New Year period, as published in early June.(extract below)

There were no fan friendly or money options - the fixtures were the fixtures ?  Unless you can enlighten me 

qexfuBD.jpg

 

  

 

There were set fixtures on the 16 Saturdays from 5 September to 19 December.

The reverse of these fixtures were on 16 of the for 17 Saturdays in the New Year (excluding 16 January which was FA Cup First Round Proper).

No matches could be played in the months without an R - the football season ran from 1 September to 30 April.

At some time after clubs had been advised of their 32 mandated fixtures I believe there was a meeting in a smoke-filled room where club representatives agreed their remaining fixtures with the 3 remaining clubs.

The extract you have shown indicates that 9 matches were scheduled for Christmas Day - why did neither PNE nor Sunderland play? They were actually paired the previous Saturday, so the Christmas fixtures were clearly ad hoc.

Six of the nine Christmas Day fixtures were reversed on Boxing Day, with all the remaining eight clubs playing. Were Blackburn required to host Middlesbrough on the Friday and then visit PNE the next day (PNE not having played on the Friday)?

A full set of matches was scheduled for 6 February even though this was FA Cup Second  Round day. In the event none of these matches was played on that date. Seven were re-arranged for later dates but three were brought forward to September. I'd be interested to know whether that was before the list you quoted was printed, or done soon afterwards.

Chelsea's fixtures with PNE were not on mandated Saturdays. Their home match was on Tuesday 1 September with the away match on Monday 7 September, after Chelsea had visited Liverpool on the opening Saturday.

Similarly Arsenal hosted Everton on Wednesday 2 September then visited Notts County on the Saturday and visited Everton on Monday 7 September.

There were six matches on 1 September and two more on 2 September, but Manchester United, Middlesbrough, Nottingham Forest and Notts County did not play until the full fixture round on Saturday 5 September.

Incidentally the listed match for Tuesday 29 December (Sheffield United v Bury) was postponed and eventually played on Monday 1 March.

There were seven matches on New Year. Their reverse fixtures comprised one on 1 September, two on Boxing Day, one on 9 April (Good Friday), two on 12 April (Easter Monday), and one on 13 April. I believe the League agreed the fixtures before publication but did not initiate them.

I'd also be interested to know whether the Sheffield United v Liverpool match was listed for the final Saturday (Cup Final Day!) because it was actually brought forward to Monday 14 September.

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4 hours ago, MalcolmW said:

There were set fixtures on the 16 Saturdays from 5 September to 19 December.

The reverse of these fixtures were on 16 of the for 17 Saturdays in the New Year (excluding 16 January which was FA Cup First Round Proper).

No matches could be played in the months without an R - the football season ran from 1 September to 30 April.

At some time after clubs had been advised of their 32 mandated fixtures I believe there was a meeting in a smoke-filled room where club representatives agreed their remaining fixtures with the 3 remaining clubs.

The extract you have shown indicates that 9 matches were scheduled for Christmas Day - why did neither PNE nor Sunderland play? They were actually paired the previous Saturday, so the Christmas fixtures were clearly ad hoc.

Six of the nine Christmas Day fixtures were reversed on Boxing Day, with all the remaining eight clubs playing. Were Blackburn required to host Middlesbrough on the Friday and then visit PNE the next day (PNE not having played on the Friday)?

A full set of matches was scheduled for 6 February even though this was FA Cup Second  Round day. In the event none of these matches was played on that date. Seven were re-arranged for later dates but three were brought forward to September. I'd be interested to know whether that was before the list you quoted was printed, or done soon afterwards.

Chelsea's fixtures with PNE were not on mandated Saturdays. Their home match was on Tuesday 1 September with the away match on Monday 7 September, after Chelsea had visited Liverpool on the opening Saturday.

Similarly Arsenal hosted Everton on Wednesday 2 September then visited Notts County on the Saturday and visited Everton on Monday 7 September.

There were six matches on 1 September and two more on 2 September, but Manchester United, Middlesbrough, Nottingham Forest and Notts County did not play until the full fixture round on Saturday 5 September.

Incidentally the listed match for Tuesday 29 December (Sheffield United v Bury) was postponed and eventually played on Monday 1 March.

There were seven matches on New Year. Their reverse fixtures comprised one on 1 September, two on Boxing Day, one on 9 April (Good Friday), two on 12 April (Easter Monday), and one on 13 April. I believe the League agreed the fixtures before publication but did not initiate them.

I'd also be interested to know whether the Sheffield United v Liverpool match was listed for the final Saturday (Cup Final Day!) because it was actually brought forward to Monday 14 September.

Hi Malcolm

Before I get into the detail of my reply, I want you to know I would never dream of calling you a **** as someone on here suggested, a ****** maybe but never a **** and If you want to meet outside the club shop for a straightener - apparently that’s the WW preferred method to resolve disputes – that’s fine by me. Alternatively we could talk it through man to man over a pre match/ pint, (Ale House or Brewery Bar in Horwich are my preferences) next time I manage to get over to Bolton for a game.

(Everyone else can stop reading at this point as it’s about to get very boring)

Anyway the reason I took issue with your original post was because if what you were saying was correct, you were telling me something I was totally unaware of and which was inconsistent with everything I had previously read.

Given that you have an excellent reputation on this website for being the “go to man” for facts and statistics – I was intrigued by your suggestion that at the time (1908/09) clubs set some (6) of their own fixtures and was not going to dismiss your comments lightly.

I have to say I don’t know where this information has come from but I do think wherever you have read it, on this occasion it is most likely incorrect.

Why do I think that?

Well below I have attached extracts from the Sheffield Daily Independent (by way of an example) of 30 May 1908, a newspaper printed the day after the Football League met on 29 May 1908 to set the fixtures.

I cannot see how the clubs could have possibly met separately to agree some of these fixtures after the Football League meeting and nowhere can I find reference to such an arrangement being in place that season or any previous season.  

Given that I cannot find any reference to the clubs setting any of their own fixtures – I would love to know when this supposedly happened? I have looked on several archive databases covering the period – I can find absolutely nothing  and would suggest if you can provide some evidence to support your argument you do so – I am always keen to learn.  

All I can see is that within 24 hours of the football league meeting a full set of fixtures were published, and yes, some fixtures did subsequently get moved around, but the fact is a full set of fixtures was issued, and nowhere can I find any evidence to support your suggestion.

Anyway In the absence of anything further, and knowing I am boring the rest of WW to death - let’s leave it there – otherwise see you outside the club shop !   I have only included part of September’s fixtures and those set for February 1909.- which cover the Fa cup 2nd round date  (If you want all the fixtures then pm me and I will send them to you)

Below I have tried to answer specific points

There were set fixtures on the 16 Saturdays from 5 September to 19 December.

Clubs did not just play on Saturdays ! The opening fixtures of the season were on Monday 1st  and Tuesday 2nd   September

The reverse of these fixtures were on 16 of the 17 Saturdays in the New Year (excluding 16 January which was FA Cup First Round Proper).

No matches could be played in the months without an R - the football season ran from 1 September to 30 April.

Matches could be played – friendlies were – no league matches were scheduled outside September – April – and I would suggest the “R” matter is one of pure coincidence.

At some time after clubs had been advised of their 32 mandated fixtures I believe there was a meeting in a smoke-filled room where club representatives agreed their remaining fixtures with the 3 remaining clubs.

Where are you getting this information from?  Most meeting rooms at the time were smoke filled - practically everyone smoked. Exactly when do you suggest this took place ?

The Football League meeting took place on 29th May 1908 at which the fixtures were set – they were in the newspapers the next day !

The extract you have shown indicates that 9 matches were scheduled for Christmas Day - why did neither PNE nor Sunderland play? They were actually paired the previous Saturday, so the Christmas fixtures were clearly ad hoc.

Their fixture was set for 19th December.

Six of the nine Christmas Day fixtures were reversed on Boxing Day, with all the remaining eight clubs playing. Were Blackburn required to host Middlesbrough on the Friday and then visit PNE the next day (PNE not having played on the Friday)?

A full set of matches was scheduled for 6 February even though this was FA Cup Second  Round day. In the event none of these matches was played on that date. Seven were re-arranged for later dates but three were brought forward to September. I'd be interested to know whether that was before the list you quoted was printed, or done soon afterwards.

Only 8 were ever scheduled for 6th february

Chelsea's fixtures with PNE were not on mandated Saturdays. Their home match was on Tuesday 1 September with the away match on Monday 7 September, after Chelsea had visited Liverpool on the opening Saturday.

Clubs did not just play on Saturdays ! You really need to understand this . The opening fixtures of the season were on Monday 1st  and Tuesday 2nd   September

Similarly Arsenal hosted Everton on Wednesday 2 September then visited Notts County on the Saturday and visited Everton on Monday 7 September.

There were six matches on 1 September and two more on 2 September, but Manchester United, Middlesbrough, Nottingham Forest and Notts County did not play until the full fixture round on Saturday 5 September.

Is this relevant? – the fixtures played were those set

Incidentally the listed match for Tuesday 29 December (Sheffield United v Bury) was postponed and eventually played on Monday 1 March.

Irrelevent

There were seven matches on New Year. Their reverse fixtures comprised one on 1 September, two on Boxing Day, one on 9 April (Good Friday), two on 12 April (Easter Monday), and one on 13 April. I believe the League agreed the fixtures before publication but did not initiate them. 

I'd also be interested to know whether the Sheffield United v Liverpool match was listed for the final Saturday (Cup Final Day!) because it was actually brought forward to Monday 14 September

No It was always scheduled to be played on 14th September

gxICaCH.jpg

w0LJe6U.jpg

MtoPh4Q.jpg

Edited by Benny The Ball
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13 hours ago, MalcolmW said:

There were set fixtures on the 16 Saturdays from 5 September to 19 December.

The reverse of these fixtures were on 16 of the for 17 Saturdays in the New Year (excluding 16 January which was FA Cup First Round Proper).

No matches could be played in the months without an R - the football season ran from 1 September to 30 April.

At some time after clubs had been advised of their 32 mandated fixtures I believe there was a meeting in a smoke-filled room where club representatives agreed their remaining fixtures with the 3 remaining clubs.

The extract you have shown indicates that 9 matches were scheduled for Christmas Day - why did neither PNE nor Sunderland play? They were actually paired the previous Saturday, so the Christmas fixtures were clearly ad hoc.

Six of the nine Christmas Day fixtures were reversed on Boxing Day, with all the remaining eight clubs playing. Were Blackburn required to host Middlesbrough on the Friday and then visit PNE the next day (PNE not having played on the Friday)?

A full set of matches was scheduled for 6 February even though this was FA Cup Second  Round day. In the event none of these matches was played on that date. Seven were re-arranged for later dates but three were brought forward to September. I'd be interested to know whether that was before the list you quoted was printed, or done soon afterwards.

Chelsea's fixtures with PNE were not on mandated Saturdays. Their home match was on Tuesday 1 September with the away match on Monday 7 September, after Chelsea had visited Liverpool on the opening Saturday.

Similarly Arsenal hosted Everton on Wednesday 2 September then visited Notts County on the Saturday and visited Everton on Monday 7 September.

There were six matches on 1 September and two more on 2 September, but Manchester United, Middlesbrough, Nottingham Forest and Notts County did not play until the full fixture round on Saturday 5 September.

Incidentally the listed match for Tuesday 29 December (Sheffield United v Bury) was postponed and eventually played on Monday 1 March.

There were seven matches on New Year. Their reverse fixtures comprised one on 1 September, two on Boxing Day, one on 9 April (Good Friday), two on 12 April (Easter Monday), and one on 13 April. I believe the League agreed the fixtures before publication but did not initiate them.

I'd also be interested to know whether the Sheffield United v Liverpool match was listed for the final Saturday (Cup Final Day!) because it was actually brought forward to Monday 14 September.

giphy.webp?cid=6c09b9528493a4e426c7a3739

 

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8 hours ago, Benny The Ball said:

Hi Malcolm

Before I get into the detail of my reply, I want you to know I would never dream of calling you a **** as someone on here suggested, a ****** maybe but never a **** and If you want to meet outside the club shop for a straightener - apparently that’s the WW preferred method to resolve disputes – that’s fine by me. Alternatively we could talk it through man to man over a pre match/ pint, (Ale House or Brewery Bar in Horwich are my preferences) next time I manage to get over to Bolton for a game.

(Everyone else can stop reading at this point as it’s about to get very boring)

Anyway the reason I took issue with your original post was because if what you were saying was correct, you were telling me something I was totally unaware of and which was inconsistent with everything I had previously read.

Given that you have an excellent reputation on this website for being the “go to man” for facts and statistics – I was intrigued by your suggestion that at the time (1908/09) clubs set some (6) of their own fixtures and was not going to dismiss your comments lightly.

I have to say I don’t know where this information has come from but I do think wherever you have read it, on this occasion it is most likely incorrect.

Why do I think that?

Well below I have attached extracts from the Sheffield Daily Independent (by way of an example) of 30 May 1908, a newspaper printed the day after the Football League met on 29 May 1908 to set the fixtures.

I cannot see how the clubs could have possibly met separately to agree some of these fixtures after the Football League meeting and nowhere can I find reference to such an arrangement being in place that season or any previous season.  

Given that I cannot find any reference to the clubs setting any of their own fixtures – I would love to know when this supposedly happened? I have looked on several archive databases covering the period – I can find absolutely nothing  and would suggest if you can provide some evidence to support your argument you do so – I am always keen to learn.  

All I can see is that within 24 hours of the football league meeting a full set of fixtures were published, and yes, some fixtures did subsequently get moved around, but the fact is a full set of fixtures was issued, and nowhere can I find any evidence to support your suggestion.

Anyway In the absence of anything further, and knowing I am boring the rest of WW to death - let’s leave it there – otherwise see you outside the club shop !   I have only included part of September’s fixtures and those set for February 1909.- which cover the Fa cup 2nd round date  (If you want all the fixtures then pm me and I will send them to you)

Below I have tried to answer specific points

There were set fixtures on the 16 Saturdays from 5 September to 19 December.

Clubs did not just play on Saturdays ! The opening fixtures of the season were on Monday 1st  and Tuesday 2nd   September

The reverse of these fixtures were on 16 of the 17 Saturdays in the New Year (excluding 16 January which was FA Cup First Round Proper).

No matches could be played in the months without an R - the football season ran from 1 September to 30 April.

Matches could be played – friendlies were – no league matches were scheduled outside September – April – and I would suggest the “R” matter is one of pure coincidence.

At some time after clubs had been advised of their 32 mandated fixtures I believe there was a meeting in a smoke-filled room where club representatives agreed their remaining fixtures with the 3 remaining clubs.

Where are you getting this information from?  Most meeting rooms at the time were smoke filled - practically everyone smoked. Exactly when do you suggest this took place ?

The Football League meeting took place on 29th May 1908 at which the fixtures were set – they were in the newspapers the next day !

The extract you have shown indicates that 9 matches were scheduled for Christmas Day - why did neither PNE nor Sunderland play? They were actually paired the previous Saturday, so the Christmas fixtures were clearly ad hoc.

Their fixture was set for 19th December.

Six of the nine Christmas Day fixtures were reversed on Boxing Day, with all the remaining eight clubs playing. Were Blackburn required to host Middlesbrough on the Friday and then visit PNE the next day (PNE not having played on the Friday)?

A full set of matches was scheduled for 6 February even though this was FA Cup Second  Round day. In the event none of these matches was played on that date. Seven were re-arranged for later dates but three were brought forward to September. I'd be interested to know whether that was before the list you quoted was printed, or done soon afterwards.

Only 8 were ever scheduled for 6th february

Chelsea's fixtures with PNE were not on mandated Saturdays. Their home match was on Tuesday 1 September with the away match on Monday 7 September, after Chelsea had visited Liverpool on the opening Saturday.

Clubs did not just play on Saturdays ! You really need to understand this . The opening fixtures of the season were on Monday 1st  and Tuesday 2nd   September

Similarly Arsenal hosted Everton on Wednesday 2 September then visited Notts County on the Saturday and visited Everton on Monday 7 September.

There were six matches on 1 September and two more on 2 September, but Manchester United, Middlesbrough, Nottingham Forest and Notts County did not play until the full fixture round on Saturday 5 September.

Is this relevant? – the fixtures played were those set

Incidentally the listed match for Tuesday 29 December (Sheffield United v Bury) was postponed and eventually played on Monday 1 March.

Irrelevent

There were seven matches on New Year. Their reverse fixtures comprised one on 1 September, two on Boxing Day, one on 9 April (Good Friday), two on 12 April (Easter Monday), and one on 13 April. I believe the League agreed the fixtures before publication but did not initiate them. 

I'd also be interested to know whether the Sheffield United v Liverpool match was listed for the final Saturday (Cup Final Day!) because it was actually brought forward to Monday 14 September

No It was always scheduled to be played on 14th September

gxICaCH.jpg

w0LJe6U.jpg

MtoPh4Q.jpg

dumb-and-dumber-heart.gif

 

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Not read through all this thread but Lincoln away, a Thursday night in between Christmas and New Year.

Good grief. All day on the sauce and an overnight job. This has got debauchery written all over it

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