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Wanderers Ways. Neil Thompson 1961-2021

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desperado

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1 hour ago, radcliffe white said:

It’s about having strength in depth

portsmouth had 9 out for a period 4 being key players 

I'm not looking into it too much, but were Pompeys key players out at the same time or did they overlap ?

Were they right up the spine of the team like Baxter, Santos and Charles for us ? 

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14 minutes ago, desperado said:

I think it’s a fair argument, that two clubs can be hit with the same amount of injuries, but one set of injuries effect one side the greater, because you’ve lost a higher quality and/or a bigger influence in your team. 

I  don’t think it’s a case of you don’t want to accept it.

While it’s still an opinion, it’s more than valid to accept that;

Regan Poole, Joe Morrell, Terry Devlin, Tom McIntyre are nowhere near as important to Portsmouth as;

Our top scorer and at the time one of the best L1 strikers Charles 

Our Captain and  top L1 defender Santos 

Best midfielder in the league Sheehan

One of the best Keepers in the league Baxter.

Plus a whole host of other influential injuries/absentees; CMG, JDB, Vic, Jones

There’s no way your squad replacements can be at the same of level of quality/influence as those. 

But we dropped silly points when all them guys was playing in fact goals hasn’t really been an issue folk go on about Vic but since his injury we’ve lost once averaging 2 goals a game

santos is a good player but you could say he’s cost us points with his silly red cards

Baxter being out hasn’t cost us imo Coleman in fact kept us in games

the more I look at our results we dropped the bad ones with most of them mentioned playing 

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6 minutes ago, radcliffe white said:

But we dropped silly points when all them guys was playing in fact goals hasn’t really been an issue folk go on about Vic but since his injury we’ve lost once averaging 2 goals a game

santos is a good player but you could say he’s cost us points with his silly red cards

Baxter being out hasn’t cost us imo Coleman in fact kept us in games

the more I look at our results we dropped the bad ones with most of them mentioned playing 

But surely you see that those Portsmouth players obviously weren’t as influential as the players we’ve had out?

They didn’t miss them, they won the league.

We have shown we are not winning the league with our key players out for lengthy spells.

in that third quarter of the season without our key players we went through a shocking spell.

What do we do next year if they’re injured? Buy players equally as good as Sheehan, Santos, Baxter, Charles? Crikey we’d be splashing out another few million for reserve players 

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Baxter, Santos, Sheehan, Victor
 
All these were starters in the team that got hammered 4-0 at home by Wigan
 
Bolton haven't failed to win automatic promotion due to injuries,They have failed because the strongest team wasn't good enough and there are better managers in the 3rd Division
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7 minutes ago, desperado said:

 

But surely you see that those Portsmouth players obviously weren’t as influential as the players we’ve had out?

They didn’t miss them, they won the league.

We have shown we are not winning the league with our key players out for lengthy spells.

in that third quarter of the season without our key players we went through a shocking spell.

What do we do next year if they’re injured? Buy players equally as good as Sheehan, Santos, Baxter, Charles? Crikey we’d be splashing out another few million for reserve players 

They had adequate replacements then

Yes we’ve had it bad but playing the injury violin is weak

we messed up first half of the season when all our players you mentioned played, reading, Wigan, Carlisle, bristol, Orient & burton 

Edited by radcliffe white
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Just now, radcliffe white said:

They had adequate replacements then

Adequate replacements for less influential players.

For me, we need to start talking about other factors with the defeats that have been highlighted; attitude in local derbies, tactical flexibility (especially in away games), mental preparedness. All valid debates for improvement.

Those games weren’t lost because Santos, Baxter, Charles aren’t top L1 players.

It’s not a violin out, uneducated crying excuse. The points picked up in this league have been influenced by our key players, lots of whom have gone on to be injured. 

If the debate is just about injuries, we have been more negatively influenced by being without our better players. 

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1 minute ago, desperado said:

Adequate replacements for less influential players.

For me, we need to start talking about other factors with the defeats that have been highlighted; attitude in local derbies, tactical flexibility (especially in away games), mental preparedness. All valid debates for improvement.

Those games weren’t lost because Santos, Baxter, Charles aren’t top L1 players.

It’s not a violin out, uneducated crying excuse. The points picked up in this league have been influenced by our key players, lots of whom have gone on to be injured. 

If the debate is just about injuries, we have been more negatively influenced by being without our better players. 

Goes back to what many have said it’s the levels of inconsistency and in some just poor finishing, reading, burton & Orient some big sitters missed by the big players

for me 2nd half of season with those players out wasn’t a disaster as some make out 

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34 minutes ago, FrancisFogarty said:

I'm not looking into it too much, but were Pompeys key players out at the same time or did they overlap ?

Were they right up the spine of the team like Baxter, Santos and Charles for us ? 

Tbh I don’t know much about them just what I’ve read and comments by Portsmouth fans, some of them long term I remember watching them against chesterfield in cup two got taken off injured 

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3 minutes ago, radcliffe white said:

for me 2nd half of season with those players out wasn’t a disaster as some make out 

Quick check. We’ve won 10/25 in 2024. 

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Just now, radcliffe white said:

But no real bad performances some decent draws even in the defeats we dominated 

Well let’s finish on something we agree on. Take out the local games and I agree performance wise that 10/25 creates a false picture, we are better than that.

I do feel some of those key players could have made marginal differences if fit in some of those games. 

Regardless of who is fit and available in the play-offs it will need those top level performances with chances being taken, and if we do then going up is still very much a possibility.

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32 minutes ago, radcliffe white said:

They had adequate replacements then

Yes we’ve had it bad but playing the injury violin is weak

we messed up first half of the season when all our players you mentioned played, reading, Wigan, Carlisle, bristol, Orient & burton 

That's how I see it, I don't see how the standard of results at any time of the season have been much different to any other part of the season.  Failure to beat the top teams home or away (unless v 10 men for half a game) and generally good results against the rest with the odd shocker thrown in.  And still no home defeat for 4 months, compared to 3 by mid December to non promotion contenders.  I don't see the difference of having Charles playing at Derby, Wigan & Blackpool - the period that has cost us most - when he wasn't scoring goals against that standard of opponent in the first place.  Charles & Vic both played v Orient, Barnsley (home), Northampton etc, 3 relatively recent games which have cost us 2nd spot as much as any.  The longer the season goes on, the better our pre-Christmas performances are getting, when not only were the opponents lower in the table, but we only played 9 away before Christmas compared to 12 at home. 

Edited by Johnnyrotten
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But when you're already top of the pile with 3 million games in hand, going in to the home run with some absolutely whopping games/ six pointers to play armed only with 3 fit strikers including a new signing, 53 year old Jerome and couldn't finish his haircut Bod you've absolutely fucked it.

We have Dion, Vic, CMG at Derby we win that. Instead we had Bod who missed a sitter and brought on CJ to change the game. Meanwhile Derby wazzed on 3 players in one hit and changed their game.

 

 

Edited by gonzo
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7 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

That's how I see it, I don't see how the standard of results at any time of the season have been much different to any other part of the season.  Failure to beat the top teams home or away (unless v 10 men for half a game) and generally good results against the rest with the odd shocker thrown in.  And still no home defeat for 4 months, compared to 3 by mid December to non promotion contenders.  I don't see the difference of having Charles playing at Derby, Wigan & Blackpool - the period that has cost us most - when he wasn't scoring goals against that standard of opponent in the first place.  Charles & Vic both played v Orient, Barnsley, Northampton etc, 3 relatively recent games which have cost us 2nd spot as much as any.  The longer the season goes on, the better our pre-Christmas performances are getting, when not only were the opponents lower in the table, but we only played 9 away before Christmas compared to 12 at home. 

Again quick check. Think you’re over analysing

Aug-Jan 22/31 wins (and a shed load of goals!) 

Jan - April 10/25 wins

You could break down individual games and trends and types of games to make any argument fit. 

But factually that 2nd part of the season is when injuries hit and it’s that poor form, with a much lower than expected points return which means we don’t finish 2nd.

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3 minutes ago, DazBob said:

Maybe Portsmouth have won the league because they practice attacking headers, unlike us.

🤣. They were actually practicing attacking and defending headers pre-match Tuesday.

Honestly some of the nonsense that gets trotted out sometimes is laughable.  

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1 hour ago, gonzo said:

But when you're already top of the pile with 3 million games in hand, going in to the home run with some absolutely whopping games/ six pointers to play armed only with 3 fit strikers including a new signing, 53 year old Jerome and couldn't finish his haircut Bod you've absolutely fucked it.

We have Dion, Vic, CMG at Derby we win that. Instead we had Bod who missed a sitter and brought on CJ to change the game. Meanwhile Derby wazzed on 3 players in one hit and changed their game.

 

 

No problem with agreeing to differ, you have a much lower opinion of Collins and JDB than me, I respect your opinion.  Mine is that there is no evidence to say we would have won that game at Derby with our first choice strike force, just as we didn't win plenty other "tougher" games with them.  And genuinely not a dig at Charles (who scored some great goals away) or Vic, but neither would have made contact with that cross at Derby, they just don't score them type of goals, the cross would have had to have been low, like for Vic's goals v Fleetwood.

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But we're not 3rd because of goals scored it's because of goals conceded. Look at the goals against column compared to Portsmouth and Derby. Take just the Wigan and Derby games - if you can't win those then don't lose them and they were 2 really soft goals to concede.  There has been so many examples this season with Shrewsbury another.

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1 hour ago, desperado said:

Again quick check. Think you’re over analysing

Aug-Jan 22/31 wins (and a shed load of goals!) 

Jan - April 10/25 wins

You could break down individual games and trends and types of games to make any argument fit. 

But factually that 2nd part of the season is when injuries hit and it’s that poor form, with a much lower than expected points return which means we don’t finish 2nd.

I might have a look at stats tomorrow when I'm less tired 😀 but those 56 games must include cup games, some v kids and reserves, and draws don't seem to count, as you say you can make any argument fit.  2 of the games you're saying we didn't win post-January were against a Prem team!

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2 hours ago, Roger_Dubuis said:

 

Baxter, Santos, Sheehan, Victor
 
All these were starters in the team that got hammered 4-0 at home by Wigan
 
Bolton haven't failed to win automatic promotion due to injuries,They have failed because the strongest team wasn't good enough and there are better managers in the 3rd Division

You just love mentioning Wiggin .
Why do you refer to ‘Bolton ‘ & not ‘we ?
Also ‘ they ‘ & not ‘we’ ?
Apart from that good points , red Rog , who do you suggest as manager ?

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15 minutes ago, Walkden White said:

But we're not 3rd because of goals scored it's because of goals conceded. Look at the goals against column compared to Portsmouth and Derby. Take just the Wigan and Derby games - if you can't win those then don't lose them and they were 2 really soft goals to concede.  There has been so many examples this season with Shrewsbury another.

We've scored nearly 20 more this season and let a dozen more in. The issues:

a chunk of those extra goals were easy ones v relegation fodder or off form outfits like Fleetwood, Exeter and Oxford. Not enough goals when they matter, in the bigger, tighter games. 

we've never really looked that secure as a defensive unit and continued to let in cheap goals / similar goals throughout the season. Our rare recent clean sheets have come when we've been insipid at the other end (Stevenage) or it's been very easy (Oxford).

The best sides tend to take the fewer chances made in tight, top of the table clashes and let fewer avoidable goals in. I'll have that, at least since Xmas, all the chopping and changing hasn't helped in either regard, though the backing was there to bring the likes of Ogbeta and Collins in. It's not as if we've been going into these late season games with a bench full of kids with no 78 or 87 on their backs. 

Easy to say with Vic and Dion fit we'd have pissed it, clearly they've been missed and would have been on around 15 (Vic) and 25 (Dion). One of them would probably not have been playing regularly anyway once Collins got his feet under the table. 

 

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1 hour ago, Take Hunt Off said:

You just love mentioning Wiggin .
Why do you refer to ‘Bolton ‘ & not ‘we ?
Also ‘ they ‘ & not ‘we’ ?
Apart from that good points , red Rog , who do you suggest as manager ?

A good equivalent of Rioch would be Wilder.
 
Rioch got Middlesbrpugh from tier 3 to tier 1 before getting sacked  Wilder got Sheff Utd from tier 3 to tier 1 befre gettng sacked. although he is now back working there.
 
If he is sacked again this summer that's who i woud go for.
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