I am not saying which manager is right or wrong, here, as both styles tend to be very mediocre most of times (and yes I go to most matches).

 

But one fact is when we qualified for Europe for the second time is it not a fact that no money was given to Sam, in the January transfer window, in order to start preparing for the camapign the following season. Yet, in the summer, after Sam had resigned money was aplenty and we signed (and loaned) 12 players, under Sammy. So why was this money not forthcoming in the January window? This line of debate is also strengthened due to the fact that since January that season we went down hill very fast - where as even if one or two players were brought in our fast demise would probably have either been much slower or not at all.

 

Furthermore when Sammy was in charge for the small period, he tried to change our style of game for too fast, especially with the players he had and that really did not help with the confidence of players and that was shown on the pitch and by Sammy being shown the door.

The players we got in the summer of 2007 were -

 

Gavin McCann (Aston Villa, 1m),

Jlloyd Samuel (Aston Villa, free),

Gerald Cid (Bordeaux, und),

Blerim Dzemaili (Zurich, und),

Zoltan Harsanyi (Senec, und),

Danny Guthrie (Liverpool, season-long ln),

Mikel Alonso (Real Socieded, season-long ln),

Christian Wilhelmsson (Nantes, season-long ln),

Heidar Helguson (Fulham , und),

Daniel Braaten (Rosenborg, und),

Andy O'Brien (Portsmouth, und)

 

...of which only McCann, Helguson and O'Brien involved transfers - which amounted to about ?5 million in total.

 

That summer we were ?43.1 million in debt!

 

As I understand it the bulk of the Premiership prize money is paid at the end of the season - so where was this money that should have been given to Allardyce in the January window suppose to have come from ? thin air?

 

I thought you worked in a bank a knew about finance?

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by Sluffy

So you actually know the grand total of amount we spent although, as you have also shown in your post, there were numerous players with undisclosed fees!

 

So, as you kindly keep pointing out I work in a Bank, would want the full financial facts of what was spent during the summer, before offering a thought on it as it would be a career suicide to guess (just like many front line bankers have doen over the last 10 to 20 years).

 

With those undisclosed how can you work out a total of 5million? Or are you saying Undisclosed fee means that there was no fee? And are you saying that there is never some sort of fee with regards to loanings?

 

Alos, as i have already said, if they had been serious with regards to transfers they would have found the money somehow (i.e. Nico deal previously and more recent transfers with thanks from Eddie)

The players we got in the summer of 2007 were -

 

Gavin McCann (Aston Villa, 1m),

Jlloyd Samuel (Aston Villa, free),

Gerald Cid (Bordeaux, und),

Blerim Dzemaili (Zurich, und),

Zoltan Harsanyi (Senec, und),

Danny Guthrie (Liverpool, season-long ln),

Mikel Alonso (Real Socieded, season-long ln),

Christian Wilhelmsson (Nantes, season-long ln),

Heidar Helguson (Fulham , und),

Daniel Braaten (Rosenborg, und),

Andy O'Brien (Portsmouth, und)

 

...of which only McCann, Helguson and O'Brien involved transfers - which amounted to about ?5 million in total.

 

That summer we were ?43.1 million in debt!

 

As I understand it the bulk of the Premiership prize money is paid at the end of the season - so where was this money that should have been given to Allardyce in the January window suppose to have come from ? thin air?

 

I thought you worked in a bank a knew about finance?

 

Dzemaili and Cid were both free, signed on pre-contract agreements.

McCann cost ?1m

O'Brien and Helguson were reportedly around the ?2m mark each.

Braaten cost ?450,000.

Dzemaili and Cid were both free, signed on pre-contract agreements.

McCann cost ?1m

O'Brien and Helguson were reportedly around the ?2m mark each.

Braaten cost ?450,000.

call me niaive (and I know some will ) but how did you get those figures?

call me niaive (and I know some will ) but how did you get those figures?

 

Which ones in particular?

Which ones in particular?

Helguson and obrein

 

but apologies as I have just re-read your post and you do say reportedly and not a statement of fact

So you actually know the grand total of amount we spent although, as you have also shown in your post, there were numerous players with undisclosed fees!

 

So, as you kindly keep pointing out I work in a Bank, would want the full financial facts of what was spent during the summer, before offering a thought on it as it would be a career suicide to guess (just like many front line bankers have doen over the last 10 to 20 years).

 

With those undisclosed how can you work out a total of 5million? Or are you saying Undisclosed fee means that there was no fee? And are you saying that there is never some sort of fee with regards to loanings?

 

Alos, as i have already said, if they had been serious with regards to transfers they would have found the money somehow (i.e. Nico deal previously and more recent transfers with thanks from Eddie)

 

Let me get this right - you're demanding of me the full financial facts of what was spent in the summer transfer window BEFORE offering a view - and yet you complain that the club did not spend money in the previous January transfer window without knowing ANY financial facts what so ever? - what was that about "career suicide"!!!

 

The transfers are listed as undisclosed at the time of them taking place - but figures do emerge sometime afterwards - that's how I can claim the club paid in the region of ?5 million.

 

McCann cost ?1 million, Helguson was ?1.5 million, O'Brien was thought to be ?2 million and Braaten was ?450,000. There was no loan fee involved for Guthrie and those for Wilhelmsson and Alonso would only total about ?200,000 (note how many games Alonso had played before he came to us and who Wilhelmsson played for in his previous season!).

 

The rest of them like Cid, Samuel, Dzemaili, etc, moved at the end of their existing contracts!

 

Ok, I've answered my bit - now where did you expect the club to get transfer monies from? - not forgetting Eddie Davies at the time had already invested ?8 million of his own money on Anelka!

 

Oh and the board - Eddie Davies owns 100% of the club - the board is there to rubber stamp Davies decisions - not to buy players out of their own pockets!

Helguson and obrein

 

but apologies as I have just re-read your post and you do say reportedly and not a statement of fact

Having found his first-team opportunities restricted since his ?1.5million move from Fulham last summer, the striker is looking for a permanent move away from the Reebok.

 

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/sport/38...g_a_conclusion/

Having found his first-team opportunities restricted since his ?1.5million move from Fulham last summer, the striker is looking for a permanent move away from the Reebok.

 

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/sport/38...g_a_conclusion/

1 nil to sluffy so far

Helguson was ?2.2 million.

 

With half of that dependent on appearances.

Having found his first-team opportunities restricted since his ?1.5million move from Fulham last summer, the striker is looking for a permanent move away from the Reebok.

 

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/sport/38...g_a_conclusion/

 

 

Okay that is a statement of fact in a local paper (remember one of my firsts posts with regards to the press).

 

How many times has Bolton News/Lancashire telegraph made errors like that over the years. Even many of my letters to the paper have been wronged by them, and not me, because they have editorial rights to change letters, and many rep[orts have been wronged and never corrected.

 

I would rather see something more official than just a local paper that does tend to make plenty of errors, whether accidentally or not!

 

In this case, I am not actually trying to be very pedantic or difficult, its just with Bolton News and Lancashire Telegraph they are very lightweight and do make errors in their reporting, too many times. Redaing them is, for me, is like trying to convince myself that what is on Wikipedia is all accurate.

 

 

Edit: Just for a laugh - just checked wikipedia (as I say, I don't trust Wiki for full accurate information) and even they say an undisclosed some. So does BBC website (now that is a site I trust more than the Bolton News/Lancashire Telegraph)

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by DutchWhites

Helguson was ?2.2 million.

 

With half of that dependent on appearances.

 

Fannybygaslight, where did you get your information from?

Fannybygaslight, where did you get your information from?

If you want an answer from me Amosc, I suggest you ask for it more politely.

If you want an answer from me Amosc, I suggest you ask for it more politely.

If you want an answer from me Amosc, I suggest you ask for it more politely.

Well you said you assume that I am amosc and so I assume you are fannybygaslight!

 

 

Eithyer way, how could Ihave asked more politely. I used your name (what I call you) then directly asked the question. And if I am not mistaken then is the most formal way of asking a question.

 

So once more, where did you get the information from?

Problem is, Bolton Wanderers is a business more than a football club. If ticket sales go down then eventually we are going to have problems. Yes the lifers such as you and me will continue to go and support them but it is not enough for business concern. They need money, to survive, and the best way to get money is through ticket sales and that will surely mean reducing prices to entice the floaters.

 

On a more positive side, though, if the club can convince the smallest number of floaters to become true fans then it is an excerise worth doing, isnt it?

 

Unfortunately you are wrong.

 

If you care to look at the last published accounts for Burnden Leisure you will see that it made ?50.4 million from total football revenue - with ?32 million of that coming from Sky - or in other words ALL income from fans (entrance, merchandise, food, etc) amounted for only about 33% of its income.

 

Even worse from a fans point of view was that Bolton's 'match day' revenue fell ?6.8 million from the previous year (less people going to the games) YET overall income rose by ?8 million - due to increased Sky money!

 

So although people going to the match do bring in revenue to the club - it is no where as significant as that which is brought in from Sky - hence the financial urgency to stay in the Premiership at all costs.

Unfortunately you are wrong.

 

If you care to look at the last published accounts for Burnden Leisure you will see that it made ?50.4 million from total football revenue - with ?32 million of that coming from Sky - or in other words ALL income from fans (entrance, merchandise, food, etc) amounted for only about 33% of its income.

 

Even worse from a fans point of view was that Bolton's 'match day' revenue fell ?6.8 million from the previous year (less people going to the games) YET overall income rose by ?8 million - due to increased Sky money!

 

So although people going to the match do bring in revenue to the club - it is no where as significant as that which is brought in from Sky - hence the financial urgency to stay in the Premiership at all costs.

But Television right alone do not help a club to survive and as such the club does need its floating fans to survive and if that means reducing ticket prices to fill the stadium that will have a knock on effect with merchandising.

 

If we stay in the Premiership for next few seasons (and I pray to God that we do - although I am not religious) and attandances continue to drop and we solely rely on Sky (which is what I presume you are assuming) then the debt is only going to get bigger and bigger. TV rights do not even cover our debt now, so imagine in a few years

 

Edit: I am assuming that at the moment we are currently only paying interest on the debt, which does not help to reduce the debt, but in turn help to increase the debt because of the ever increasing cost ratio (i.e. wages; utilities - electricity, water; etc).

 

Also do not forget that last season was the first season on the new tv rights contract, and the new higher TV money which asll clubs recdeived, and this years results should show a more realistic gap between income and cost with regards to the debt

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by DutchWhites

Helguson was ?2.2 million.

 

With half of that dependent on appearances.

 

The ?2.2m rings a bell with me too, but I thought it was ?1.5m up front.

Traf these two should have a page to themselves (The Sluffy & DutchWhites page ?)

It would be a bit like question time ( What do you want to no, ask and we will enlighten you)

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by Mr Magoo

But Television right alone do not help a club to survive and as such the club does need its floating fans to survive and if that means reducing ticket prices to fill the stadium that will have a knock on effect with merchandising.

 

If we stay in the Premiership for next few seasons (and I pray to God that we do - although I am not religious) and attandances continue to drop and we solely rely on Sky (which is what I presume you are assuming) then the debt is only going to get bigger and bigger. TV rights do not even cover our debt now, so imagine in a few years

 

For a banker you don't seem to grasp the financial realities.

 

67% (and increasing) of your turnover comes from Premier Sky money

 

33% (and decreasing) of your turnover comes from the supporters.

 

We are ?53.5 million in debt.

 

The clubs owner reportedly lost ?33 million last year in the credit crunch.

 

Would you -

 

a ) Spend just enough to continue survival in the Premiership (even if that means another season of negative football) and piss a few thousand more fans off, or

 

b ) Blow your wad hoping to get into the non profit making Europa League - please the fickle fans - and hope the banks forget to ask for their loans back - or that it doesn't go tits up like Boro who got to the UEFA final and now find themselves ?85 million in debt and heading out of Premiership and losing an annual income of at least ?30 million from it?

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by Sluffy

For a banker you don't seem to grasp the financial realities.

 

67% (and increasing) of your turnover comes from Premier Sky money

 

33% (and decreasing) of your turnover comes from the supporters.

 

We are ?53.5 million in debt.

 

The clubs owner reportedly lost ?33 million last year in the credit crunch.

 

Would you -

 

a ) Spend just enough to continue survival in the Premiership (even if that means another season of negative football) and piss a few thousand more fans off, or

 

b ) Blow your wad hoping to get into the non profit making Europa League - please the fickle fans - and hope the banks forget to ask for their loans back - or that it doesn't go tits up like Boro who got to the UEFA final and now find themselves ?85 million in debt and heading out of Premiership and losing an annual income of at least ?30 million from it?

 

It is a dream and an ambition to play in any UEFA competition BUT did I say anywhere in this thread that the club should be aiming for that under current financial climate of the club? All I said was that it should be aiming to increase its attendances and try to convert some floaters into being true die hard fans.

 

Even by your figures

TV/FA = GBP32mm

Other income = GBP18.4mm

 

Total GBP50.4mm

 

Club debt = GBP53.5mm and increasing.

 

Deficit of GBP3.1mm

 

Remember the TV/FA money is dependent on position in the league and as such is a moving variable and not a guaranteed sum - higher position more money, lower position less money. Each position is guaranteed the same as last year and TV rights are spread equally over the 3 seasons on the contract based on basic number of televised games but can increase if more games are televised.

 

How is the club going to bridge that gap, which in reality will continue to increase under present financial climate?

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by DutchWhites

DutchWhites 1 Sluffy 1

Even by your figures

TV/FA = GBP32mm

Other income = GBP18.4mm

 

Total GBP50.4mm

 

Club debt = GBP53.5mm and increasing.

 

Deficit of GBP3.1mm

 

Hmmmmm, I'm missing something here.

Debt = 53.5m

Income = 50.4m

 

Deficit = 3.1m

 

Do we not have any expenditure?

DutchWhites 1 Sluffy 1

(nothing disrespectful, Dutch)

 

But what do bankers know about money?

Edited April 27, 200917 yr by boltondiver

(nothing disrepectful, Dutch)

 

But what do bankers know about money?

 

I know nothing as I am only a pen pusher in the MO section of the bank and owe money myself all over the place!

 

i.e. just a normal run-of-the-mill everyday football fan