M'crayons

Widness, I agree with you mate - I feel no satisfaction at all at the fact that Newcastle are struggling. Those idiots should realise that it was always going to be a long term project turning them into a success, but they will never learn and they don't deserve Allardyce. Eighteen months ago, Allardyce knew he was the best candidate for the England job, and certainly better than McClaren, and not getting it was a blow he never recovered from. I don't blame Gartside or the Club for being unambitious - I think they showed great ambition during the Allardyce era - but Allardyce is a realist and I think he had gone stale on the Bolton job because he realised that he had probably come as far as he could with us. I don't begrudge him the opportunity to 'wake the sleeping giant' and make a shed-load of cash in the process. Yes the circumstances of his leaving were not ideal, but I do believe that it wasn't absolutely clear cut that he would go straight to Newcastle - Roeder was still in a job before Allardyce left us, for example - was Allardyce supposed to be the one to announce that Roeder was being sacked? Anyway, if I ever see Sam then I'll certainly shake his hand and buy him a pint.

You mean when they zoomed in on Prince William and Brian Barwick?

Can't believe how far in the wrong direction Bridge has gone. We'd have been better off with Jloyd.

Well yes - sounds like a recipe for an England victory to me!

Well, whether the money has the desired effect or not, the intention is there to improve their performance and I reckon that sort of thing shouldn't be allowed. Even if, as you suggest, they might play worse because of the added pressure, I still maintain that outside sources of cash should not be affecting performances - even if it is detrimentally. Thing about your bet is that Croatia are already home and dry, whatever the result, so I there's no incentive for them to 'arrange' anything.

Well, there you go - it's not on is it? (Just realised I fucked up my original post.) fcuk off you dodgy red ginger.

Alright then the consensus is that this sort of thing should be allowed. To turn it round slightly, and assuming you give a shit about the national team (and I know plenty don't), given that Russia's qualification depends on Croatia beating us tomorrow night - would you be happy if Abramovich offered a ?5million win bonus to each of the Croation players, or would you feel slightly aggrieved?

Yep, I'm talking bollocks. I was misled by the sweaty I watched it with.

Would they be that much worse off if they got their most knowledgable fan to do the job free of charge, with ?3million + Bruce's wages to go towards a new player or 2?

You know what I mean....

I don't think it follows at all that he must have some agenda. I think it's much more likely that club and international football are completely separate entities in Abramovich's mind - you've already demonstrated that England doing well could bring some minor benefits to Chelsea FC and some minor costs - it's certainly not clear enough one way or the other to really make a scrap of difference. The fact is that when Russia play, 99.9% of Abramovich's interest in the result is restricted to the fact that he's Russian and wants them to win (or at least that's how he wants his motives to be perceived in Russia) - i.e. his interest in the result has nothing to do with any other country or club. But if we could dream up scenario where a bloke was trying to affect the outcomes of international matches because he saw a potential benefit to a club team he had an interest in, then yes, I'd be against that as well! But yes, I'll agree to disagree. Fair enough, I just don't think it's a good road to go down, for the reasons I have stated. At the very least, I wouldn't consider the Israeli FA's motives for not wanting him to have it 'sinister' either - they want to make it clear that pride was the main factor in their overcoming Russia, not the money of some English bookmaker looking for novelty advertising. I despair at the lack of pride our national team plays with, so I'm happy to get behind any FA that wants to make it clear that it should be the most important factor of all when their players take to the pitch.

He's not really got an interest in the English national side though, has he, apart from minor things like the more games England play, the more games his Chelsea players have to play etc.? His owning Chelsea doesn't really affect his interest in the English national football team much more than owning a English house or rugby team would, does it?

I have to admit that I'm struggling to see a significant link between Abramovich providing incentives to players in the Russian national team, and the fact he owns an EPL team. Surely the only way Abramovich could really behave in the same way as the 'M?nich Done' is by providing incentives in a game not involving Chelsea or Russia, in order to try and make a result that is favourable to either Chelsea or Russia more likely?

I'd be happier if he just got a win bonus. We have had enough trouble trying to get all our goals through him as it is. I personally don't think it makes sense to encourage any player to be selfish to a degree that is greater than he would if helping the team were his sole objective, but you're entitled to disagree.

That's sort of within the Russia camp though. If, for whatever reason, a club or country has the cash to provide great incentives for its players, then so be it - that's life, and money is useful, just as it would be if it were spent on academies, training facilities, penthouse hotel suites etc. It's inappropriate, however, for one country, club, or interest group to try and use its wealth to affect results in games between third parties, even if it is just a publicity stunt like this Merc example. Presumably, the bookies put up the ?50,000 reward for 2 reasons. 1.) Its very existence would bring them publicity. 2.) It would tempt more people to bet on Israel, which the bookies felt was the less likely outcome. Is this something that's healthy for the game? Even if we are prepared to ditch the naive ideal that all players playing for the country should give their all just for the honour of it, should wealthy countries, even if it is only their bookies, be allowed to gain a further advantage by incentivising poorer countries as and when it suits their cause? And, I reckon there's a difference between bonuses that are team-wide, and those that single out individual players for scoring goals. I would hope that nobody at Bolton actually gets a 'goal' bonus, because it doesn't encourage team play, as I suggested above with the Andy O'Brien example.

The freekick at the end was pretty irrelevant though - it had to be the win, or they were out (given that Italy's game in hand was the Faore Islands).

Well alright, but we know the lads would probably sell the boat and share the money... And of course dodgy betting goes on - it doesn't mean it's a good thing though (unless you're ITK yourself) and the fact that it already exists adds nothing to the argument in favour of incentives provided by outside agencies.

Ok, well obviously the more likely scenario is that he would miss all of them and our performance will have been adversely affected due to the individual player's selfishness, which is only natural in a situation that shouldn't exist. Anyway, the basic point is that one interest group shouldn't be allowed to try to affect the result of a football match, just because it has a lot of money. Plus, it creates a moral hazard - what if an Israeli player had arranged a 'fumble' with the Russian goalkeeper (ooh er missus) and they shared the proceeds between them?

Incentives within a club's own pay structure is one thing, and a good thing at that, but it's not really on for outside agencies to be supplying them. What if we were playing Arsenal, and Man Utd (or, say, a rich Utd fan) offered ?1million to any of our players who scored - would you be happy if Andy O'Brien or whoever started trying 40 yard screamers as a result?

Birmingham City wouldn't let us speak to Bruce, and Jol was still Tottenham manager when we were appointing.

Presumably a T-shirt depicting Davo with the caption "Who put the ball in the Munich net?" would also be an unwise choice of attire, along with colours?

Found some decent flights from Amsterdam now - ?130. Does mean that I'm having to fly back Sunday though. I think I'm in a hotel with a couple from on here Thursday night. Then a youth hostel for the next two nights.

Nice one mate. Doesn't answer the question though, does it?

Essential for what?

Well, sort of.