It's ragging exasperating sometimes trying to talk basic economics with some folk.

 

If we drop the prices, we lose revenue.

If we lose revenue, there's no surplus from the SKY money.

If there's no surplus, there's no more ??4m Dioufs or ??8m Anelkas or ??40,000 a week Okochas etc etc.

If we can't sign those players, fans will moan.

If we can't sign those players, we slip down the league.

If we slip down the league, our crowds will shrink and our revenue will drop.

 

Back to point 1 and repeat until we go out of business.

so people should blindly keep going no matter what?..the clubs dont give a fcuk about fans.and its about time we did something about it..they hold us to ransom. when it should be the other way round..they are fucked without us..simple as that..you may want to continuly dof your cap and keep paying the "man" but some people want to make a stand..surely theres no other way?!

JUST WONDERIN LIKE , WHAT EXACTLY IS AN EURPEAN TOUR ? - IS THAT TRAVEL AGENT SLANG ?

 

S.T . YOU WOULDNT GO TO A BWFC-UNITED GAME IF YOU WERE OFFERED A FREE TICKET !! DONT CALL YERSELF A BOLTON FAN THEN COZ YOU OBVIOUSLY AINT. IN FACT YOU ARE BEGINNING TO SOUND LIKE A MUNICH .

 

IS IT THE COWYED WATER THAT HAS TURNED YOU TO THE DARK SIDE .

 

 

JUST WONDERIN LIKE , WHAT EXACTLY IS AN EURPEAN TOUR ? - IS THAT TRAVEL AGENT SLANG ?

 

S.T . YOU WOULDNT GO TO A BWFC-UNITED GAME IF YOU WERE OFFERED A FREE TICKET !! DONT CALL YERSELF A BOLTON FAN THEN COZ YOU OBVIOUSLY AINT. IN FACT YOU ARE BEGINNING TO SOUND LIKE A MUNICH .

 

IS IT THE COWYED WATER THAT HAS TURNED YOU TO THE DARK SIDE .

 

 

He's right are you aWanderer or not, a true fan or a wanna be, do you live and die for your club?

free ticket or not MU are the biggest game of the seasom. We used to dream of this fixture, make your mind up ARE YOU BOLTON OR NOT !!!!

What we need is a handful of supporters paying ??100,000 per match, sorted. Fans, who needs 'em?

cap wage bill for the next 5 years at what teams have spent last season

 

relegation for any team caught on panorama cheating.

Edited October 27, 200619 yr by Horwich

This is the best time ever being a Bolton fan in regards to league position during my life time. However, if ST prices are hyked up next season then I will be considering picking and choosing my matches. Enough is enough at fleecing the fans whilst the players and managers get crazy wages.

I heard that cu nt Ericson is getting ??13k a day still from the FA. ragging scandalous.

I can see more people getting membership cards and picking their games.

I can see more people getting membership cards and picking their games.

 

Memberships are over rated IMO, as long as you are "on the system".

Memberships are over rated IMO, as long as you are "on the system".

 

 

Explain please?

It's ragging exasperating sometimes trying to talk basic economics with some folk.

 

If we drop the prices, we lose revenue.

If we lose revenue, there's no surplus from the SKY money.

If there's no surplus, there's no more ??4m Dioufs or ??8m Anelkas or ??40,000 a week Okochas etc etc.

If we can't sign those players, fans will moan.

If we can't sign those players, we slip down the league.

If we slip down the league, our crowds will shrink and our revenue will drop.

 

Back to point 1 and repeat until we go out of business.

 

Last year we finished 9 points ahead of the team 5 places behind us (Charlton) therebye making 2.5 million more in prize money than them. Dropping prices can increase crowds and thus can increase points - as theory that is true....in practise debatable, but the debate is viable and has to be addressed. In other words it is possible that an ostensible revenue decrease may - thanks to increased fan numbers - even itself out. Which is why it is hard to judge. After all, 9 points aint much. If in one home game the crowd roars them on to a win when they otherwise they would have lost, and in three others the crowd's efforts produce wins that would otherwise have been drawn - then that's 9 points ie last year's 2.5 million. So reduced prices in 4 games could have significant effects.

I don't disagree SG, mine was a simplified mathematical approach on a season-long basis.

To do it on a match by match basis is fraught with problems about pissing off the ST holders who paid good (and big!) money up front.

Very emotive subject, we all know ticket prices have peaked, but whilst the top/big teams are filling their stadia, the rest of us, who are trying to compete with them, are struggling to justify dropping the ticket prices whilst still balancing the COMPETATIVE books.

 

This is a copy of an email I sent to our chairman this week, to which I have, so far, received no reply:

 

Phil,

There have been many discussions and debates recently regarding the cost of attending Premiership football matches, here are my thoughts, including a couple of ideas which could help to retain our fans.

 

First of all, here are the 4 main reasons, in priority order, why I believe attendances are falling:

 

High cost of a Match day ticket

Season ticket costs (at Bolton) remain reasonable (Not cheap, but okay).

Family season tickets offer excellent value.

Match day tickets are expensive, for anything other than Cat. C matches.

Membership brings the match day costs down considerably but I don't think this is pushed/publicised well enough.

Match day tickets for away fans are expensive, for anything other than Cat. C matches. This is a major reason why the away fans attendances, at The Reebok, are down from what they were two, or three, years ago (And also why Bolton's following, away from home, is much less than it used to be).

 

Too many games on TV (Sky & foreign channels)

Football overload is one factor (i.e. football matches constantly being on TV. causing the senses to be numbed). We witnessed this years ago (When Brian Clough was still managing) & attendances were falling. Sky TV then came onto the scene, & with their innovations & quality coverage, they reignited the country's passion for football. This caused the Premiership, & then other divisions, attendances to soar. Unfortunately, Sky TV is now commonplace, it's novelty has worn off & it's product is not so exciting anymore.

Too many of our games are on Sky TV. Whilst this is good for income it will invariably affect the attendance, especially if the ticket price is high & even more so for away fans. This will clearly have a negative effect on income.

Virtually all our games (home & away) can now be viewed via foreign satellite channels, in the main at pubs (of which there are now a vast selection, locally) or at home, if you possess the correct equipment. According to newspaper reports, there are more & more publicans appearing in court charged with showing live premiership matches, via foreign channels, AND WINNING. Evidently this practice appears to be legal & is therefore not going to go away (even if it is illegal it won't go away!). The local pubs (right across the borough & beyond) are full, for home as well as away matches, of Bolton fans watching their team. It is clearly a lot cheaper & certainly more convenient & comfortable, to watch a match live at the pub than actually going to the stadium.

 

Kick-off times are often inconvenient due to Sky TV coverage

This is quite an old chestnut now, but nevertheless it does prevent &/or discourage fans from attending matches &, perhaps more significantly, purchasing season tickets because they don't know how many matches they will be forced to miss (e.g. through work commitments if they work nights or Sundays).

 

Disillusionment with the obscene wages that Premiership players are earning

Although there is nothing much that individual clubs can do about this, it cannot be ignored as a growing factor why some fans have stopped attending matches & why others might join the protest.

When things are going well, the majority of fans will turn a blind eye to this (even though the multi-thousand pound, per week, wages do not sit comfortably with virtually every fan), but if a club is struggling then this factor just speeds up the rate at which fans cease to attend matches.

 

So, what can we do about it?

I had a play around with a simple spreadsheet (attached for interest/reference) to see how match day prices might affect attendances:

 

<<Ticket costs.xls>>

On the spreadsheet I have made lots of assumptions & applied averages, plus, the complexities of family tickets, etc. has been mopped up into the average costs. The revenue from programme/beer/food sales, which is dependent on attendances, has also been ignored. Nevertheless, it probably gives a reasonable indication of the situation.

 

My conclusion, having played around with the match day ticket cost, & subsequent effect on attendances, is that the price is currently about right, IN RESPECT OF MAXIMISING THE INCOME. I.E. In my opinion I don't see how we can attract more fans through the turnstiles without dropping the ticket price, which will then have a negative effect on the overall gate income.

 

If our average gate (for the season) drops further, say below 18,000 (heaven forbid), then reducing costs to increase attendances, without losing income, becomes more viable. Hence why Blackburn & now, possibly Wigan, are looking to drop their prices. Their gates are so low, they have enough vacant seats to fill which (if filled due to lower prices), could have an overall positive effect on income, with the major added bonus of larger attendances.

 

I'm sure your aware of most, if not all, of the above points (I'm honestly not trying to tell you how to suck eggs), however, the dilemma remains, how do we maximise attendances without reducing income?

 

As stated in my introductory sentence, I have a couple of ideas which could help:

 

1) Next season, as you know, the new TV deal kicks in &, I understand, the TV income will rise substantially as a result of this new deal. No doubt the number of televised matches & the inconvenience to fans, caused by the additional televised matches, will also increase. This will inevitably put even greater pressure on attendances.

 

My suggestion, to counter this threat, is to reduce match day prices (from the current average of approx. ??28 to an average of circa ??20), obviously this will lead to reduced gate income (evidenced by my spreadsheet.... assuming it is a reasonable indicator) but larger gates.

 

The, circa ??1.2m, lost revenue will be more than made up for by the new TV income (an additional ??8m if the press is to be believed). Obviously, if BWFC drop their prices & other clubs don't, our competitive edge will be reduced (due to the reduction in our RELATIVE income) but I think it's a step which will reap benefits. I.E. Increased gates (home & away fans), & therefore better (full) attendances, but, more importantly, stacks of goodwill. My point, above, about the fans unease with the huge wages players receive will only be exacerbated if the extra money from TV next season drains out of the game & into players pockets, this suggestion will go a long way to pacifying fans on this point.

 

As a loyal fan, of over 30 years, whilst it is irritating that some (lots) of my fellow fans choose to watch the match at the pub, instead of at the stadium, it really is understandable;

 

The football industry gets huge amounts of revenues from the TV companies, the TV companies need to recoup their outlay by showing football matches on TV (either directly or by selling their footage to other channels) with the result that fans can now watch virtually all their teams matches on TV. Couple this with huge ticket costs to watch a match live at the stadium ..... Shooting & feet spring to mind!

 

2) How do we keep our existing fans, especially the season tickets holder, who are the mainstay of the gate (& probably all other ) income?

 

My suggestion is to reward season ticket holders who renew their season tickets.

E.G. Give each season ticket holder a ??10 discount (for an adult, other categories would need to be pro-rata) if they renew their ticket, & do this every season up to a maximum of say 10 years.

 

No doubt you will be thinking 'more reduced income', which will be true if looked at only in the short term, but when viewed with the 2,000 - 4,000 season ticket holders we lost compared to last season (you'll know the precise figure), at least 50% of those might still be season ticket holders if they had an incentive to stay loyal.

 

Okay, I agree, many of the season holders (myself included) will renew if we get a discount or not, but an increasing number won't, and for the 'waverers' after say 5 years, a loss of the ??50 discount if they have a year or two off, will have a major impact on their decision to renew or not.

 

If you think their is merit in this idea, then the details of the scheme can be 'developed' (e.g. it might be prudent to give a bigger discount after the first years renewal, say ??20, with ??5 discounts for each of the following 6 years, this would give a stronger incentive, earlier.

 

Hope this helps.

UP THE WHITES!

Explain please?

 

It's ??30, for which you do get... erm nothing. You save money on games but can't buy ticket online so fall foul of the transaction fee - it's a double-edged sword. The only thing it's really good for is guaranteeing you tickets for games which haven't sold out anyway.

I don't disagree SG, mine was a simplified mathematical approach on a season-long basis.

To do it on a match by match basis is fraught with problems about pissing off the ST holders who paid good (and big!) money up front.

Oh I know and that was ina way what I getting at. After all you can hardly hope to guarantee to get those 8 extra points in 4 hand-picked games. But over, say, half the season you might. So if they reduced the prices for 10 games then by your approx figures we'd lose 2 million but there'd be - potentially at least - a good chance of making up the 8 points that woud, last season at least, have made up the 2 million in prize money. Presumably even more if the cash per place reward rises with the new tv deal.

I don't that this would work with any absolute certainty. I also suspect that - as I've pointed out in other threads - we're currently on just about the crowds we can historically expect. BUT equally the price argument cannot be overlooked or dismissed - and that's why the question keeps reappearing here. There's no easy answer!

Reet, th'East Midlands Whites are about to set off to the match

It's ??30, for which you do get... erm nothing. You save money on games but can't buy ticket online so fall foul of the transaction fee - it's a double-edged sword. The only thing it's really good for is guaranteeing you tickets for games which haven't sold out anyway.

 

I get you now.

 

But, it's still worth it IMO.

 

My ??30 outlay will pay for itself. It has saved me ??11 today alone, I think.

I agree with Goerge's first point regarding expanding the staduim. I think I'm correct in thinking that it would cost 2-3 million (maybe some one can correct me?) to expand to 32,000. This would be a superb investment of the 8 million tv revenue increase, giving the board more room to play with the figures.

 

There's no point argueing that 32,000 at 20 quid is 640,000 compared to just over a million quid for 27,000 at 39, because not everybody in the ground is paying 39 quid, taking students, juniors, Senior Citizens into account. Perhaps Ziggy can put it the potential of the Reebok after a capacity increase into his spread sheet and 'mop up' the figures?

Edited October 28, 200619 yr by Henrick_Pedigol