Obviously there's lot of talk about what went wrong in terms of tactics in yesterdays game but to my mind our problems in such fixtures run much deeper than the present day, Ian Evatt, our current squad. 

Here are the facts: 

• We are six games without a win against Preston dating back to 2001. - that includes three straight home defeats.
• We've won one of 10 league games v Blackpool since we started playing them again in 2010 after a long gap with no fixtures. We've not won at Bloomfield Road since 1977 (14 league and cup fixtures). Admittedly there are a lot of draws in these fixtures but its still not good enough. 
• Our most recent derby win (excluding Accrington, Morecambe, Fleetwood) came against Blackburn at Christmas 2015 when Madine scored a late winner for 1-0 in a dour league game. In December that'll be eight years ago! Before then we can at least say we won and lost fixtures v Blackburn in roughly equal measure.
• We've not won in four fixtures v Burnley and one in six. The last win was in February 2013 - ten years ago. 
• We are now seven games without a win v Wigan (six league games) including some horrible thumpings (5-2, 4-0, 4-0). Eight years since an FA Cup win in early 2015 and nine years since a league win (3-1 at home in 2014). 
• Bury are no longer with us in a recognisable form but anyone with longer memories will know what an utter meal we routinely made of fixtures v them. It sums up the malaise I am trying to describe. In the early 80s and 90s we sustained defeats against 2-3, 2-4, 1-4 and 1-3 home defeats against them of which yesterday's farce had echoes. We went 87 years without a win at Gigg Lane and although there were long gaps without a fixture there were enough for us to have won a few. It took ex Bury player Phil Parkinson to understand what it meant to them so that we finally got over the line with a 0-2 win there in 2016. 

You could lob in Accrington 7 Bolton 1 (and other gormless defeats to Stanley lately) and Stockport 5 Bolton 3 in recent times. 

What the fuck is wrong with us? 

I doubt you'll find another club in English football with such a sloppy attitude to derby matches against sides who want our scalp. It's irritated me for a long time - even more so now I've just spent 20 mins googling the facts. 

We badly need to buck our ideas up in these games. They're out of context of whatever season they're in and we're surrounded by clubs who love to beat us. We need to take the same one-off approach and gear ourselves up properly for such fixtures ... otherwise debacles like yesterday will continue to happen.

 

59 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Didn't say we ever "walked over" them. But we made a game of it. Think you might be extrapolating a bit because Saturday was absolutely horrific. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. And we do appear to have a shit record against local rivals (although that depends on who you consider are our "rivals", and what time period you choose to consider). They all up their game because we are a HUGE scalp at this level, and I agree it's something we should take more seriously and try to counteract. Saturday was a fucking piss take.

For the record our Prem record v Blackburn in those 11 consecutive seasons from 2001 to 2012 was Won 6 Drawn 9 Lost 7. Before that we played them in the late 90s both in the Prem and we Won 3 Drew 1 Lost 4 of those. After that we played them over five Championship seasons between 2012 and 2019 (two seasons there was no fixture because we had a year in League 1 and so did they). We Won 5 Drew 1 Lost 4.  Blackburn had an FA Cup win over us that has to be chucked in to the mix too. 

Overall that's fairly even - they were slightly ahead.  Somehow amidst that lot we managed 10 league home games without a win against them, starting with that dismal 1-4 in our promotion season under BSA.

Blackburn's arch-rival is Burnley. They don't like us, but they probably don't hate us. Wigan, Blackpool and RIP Bury do/did. They're all clubs we're clearly bigger than. You know our recent record v Wigan and we've won 1 out of the last 10 league games v Blackpool. They just want it more when we play them. We are indeed a huge scalp at this level and when those two clubs beat us it means their fans are made up about it  afor weeks. The clubs know it and it filters through to the playing staff.  We really need to stop rolling over against them and match them - that's what needs to filter through to our playing staff and pronto.  Blackpool at home in November - we need to see them off. I bet we don't.

Re us beating United a few times, Id say United were in exactly the same situation we are.

They completely underestimated the hatred from our side. We were bang up for in those early prem years. They thought we were just another league game. Gary Nevilles comments in his book alludes to this as does Piques.

They soon got wise though and invariably twatted us out of sight towards the end, they were bang up for it in return, from their fans to their players. 

3 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

For the record our Prem record v Blackburn in those 11 consecutive seasons from 2001 to 2012 was Won 6 Drawn 9 Lost 7. Before that we played them in the late 90s both in the Prem and we Won 3 Drew 1 Lost 4 of those. After that we played them over five Championship seasons between 2012 and 2019 (two seasons there was no fixture because we had a year in League 1 and so did they). We Won 5 Drew 1 Lost 4.  Blackburn had an FA Cup win over us that has to be chucked in to the mix too. 

Overall that's fairly even - they were slightly ahead.  Somehow amidst that lot we managed 10 league home games without a win against them, starting with that dismal 1-4 in our promotion season under BSA.

Blackburn's arch-rival is Burnley. They don't like us, but they probably don't hate us. Wigan, Blackpool and RIP Bury do/did. They're all clubs we're clearly bigger than. You know our recent record v Wigan and we've won 1 out of the last 10 league games v Blackpool. They just want it more when we play them. We are indeed a huge scalp at this level and when those two clubs beat us it means their fans are made up about it  afor weeks. The clubs know it and it filters through to the playing staff.  We really need to stop rolling over against them and match them - that's what needs to filter through to our playing staff and pronto.  Blackpool at home in November - we need to see them off. I bet we don't.

So if we beat Blackpool in November, your theory is destroyed? I know what you're getting at though. It's just one of those things. No need to get the almanac out. "Bogey teams" don't have actual magic powers.

Just now, Cheese said:

So if we beat Blackpool in November, your theory is destroyed? I know what you're getting at though. It's just one of those things. No need to get the almanac out. "Bogey teams" don't have actual magic powers.

If we beat Blackpool in November we'll have won two league games out of 11 against them. It'll be a start at reversing the bad trend. It might also indicate that the club/playing staff have finally understood that if you stroll in to games like that like its a bog standard match in League 1 you're going to get very badly found out. Those games need different treatment. Derbies are one-offs. It's not rocket science and its the same the world over. But Bolton Wanderers just don't seem to operate like that.

1 hour ago, paulhanley said:

If we beat Blackpool in November we'll have won two league games out of 11 against them. It'll be a start at reversing the bad trend. It might also indicate that the club/playing staff have finally understood that if you stroll in to games like that like its a bog standard match in League 1 you're going to get very badly found out. Those games need different treatment. Derbies are one-offs. It's not rocket science and its the same the world over. But Bolton Wanderers just don't seem to operate like that.

What's the solution?

20 minutes ago, Cheese said:

What's the solution?

In my opinion you get the right information to the players: "These bastards hate us, we're going to have to match their desire and hunger to win this game before we can impose our class. This is not an ordinary run of the mill fixture".

What's missing is the knowledge. Does Evatt/did any of his predecessors really understand how much teams like Wigan, Blackpool and Bury stir themselves up for games v us? I don't think they do. 

... I have said this before in this thread. For me it was very telling that Phil Parkinson won us our first game at Gigg Lane in 87 years. He'd played for Bury and knew the mentality there and he said as much just before that particular match.

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by paulhanley

18 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

In my opinion you get the right information to the players: "These bastards hate us, we're going to have to match their desire and hunger to win this game before we can impose our class. This is not an ordinary run of the mill fixture".

What's missing is the knowledge. Does Evatt/did any of his predecessors really understand how much teams like Wigan, Blackpool and Bury stir themselves up for games v us? I don't think they do. 

... I have said this before in this thread. For me it was very telling that Phil Parkinson won us our first game at Gigg Lane in 87 years. He'd played for Bury and knew the mentality there and he said as much just before that particular match.

All complete guess work. Maybe that messaging happened, but it had an adverse effect and put the fear of God into the players, and that's why they played like they'd never met each other before? Who knows? It certainly isn't us.

On 20/08/2023 at 13:21, 1969 said:

Never thought I'd say this but Santos got bullied yesterday.In the 2nd half alone he shit out 3 times when going for a header

I was concerned pre-kick off that Santos and a few others didn't have the right focus on the game.

Carrying your kids through the line-ups doesn't strike me as putting yourself in the right frame of mind for a battle.

54 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

What's missing is the knowledge. Does Evatt/did any of his predecessors really understand how much teams like Wigan, Blackpool and Bury stir themselves up for games v us? I don't think they do. 

If anyone does it's Evatt 

He played for Blackpool against us, scored even 

Recent results might be shit, but our head to heads v Wigan and Blackpool even out over time 

This current side have a soft underbelly that needs addressing, not just in derby games but any game when the going gets tough and we're not allowed to play our own game 

9 hours ago, Cheese said:

All complete guess work. Maybe that messaging happened, but it had an adverse effect and put the fear of God into the players, and that's why they played like they'd never met each other before? Who knows? It certainly isn't us.

Well of course its fucking guesswork. You asked for an opinion so I gave one. Unless I am Ian Evatt, Peter Atherton or one of the squad how could it be anything other than guesswork? 

If someone put you in to a room with Mother Theresa and the Dalai Lama you'd be trying to provoke a row.

Just now, paulhanley said:

Well of course its fucking guesswork. You asked for an opinion so I gave one. Unless I am Ian Evatt, Peter Atherton or one of the squad how could it be anything other than guesswork? 

If someone put you in to a room with Mother Theresa and the Dalai Lama you'd be trying to provoke a row.

Sorry, I forgot you're the only person who's allowed to post an opinion on here.

I’ve been putting quite a bit of thought into this, without going into researching results, going more off feel, memory and personal interpretation.

There’s a few things I agree with @paulhanley on. 

It’s a good thread because I’ve realised how much local derbies mean to me.

They really are special games, with a special atmosphere, home and away.

Local bragging rights should stand for something. 

I’m really pissed off and results, especially defeats, stay on my mind much longer than other games.

The net for BWFC, because of our location and unique position of not one rival/derby, is a big one, so this should be embraced not demeaned. 

There’s then some aspects I differ with.

You can’t dismiss your current status in choosing which derby games “mean something” As much as we’d like to dismiss Accrington, Morecambe, Fleetwood - that’s who it’s been the last few years. And there’s been some tasty/close/passionate/atmospheric games. Morecambe (Bakayoko one) and Accy semi to name two.

I also have cracking, winning, memories against all of our local neighbours including… I was going to list them - but I think it’s all of them within a 35 mile radius! So too many to mention! 

So I don’t think it feels as bad a record to me as it does to others.

Then there’s the fan v player (management) argument. While I think there’s some elements/messaging/tactics that can be improved upon when we next come up against a local rival, I’m not of the opinion that this communication with players becomes overly emotional, whipping them up like they are going out to war and replacing Morley with some magical meathead. I just think that will have a detrimental effect.

For me it’s a combination of a more intellectual approach of implementing the plan sprinkled with a bit of controlled passion/aggression.

Personally I think this is achievable and applicable. And I’m looking forward to seeing it action more times this season whether it be Fleetwood, Blackpool or Wigan.

And it can add to the already great list of local derby derby wins BWFC have provided me with so far. 

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/23735138.bolton-wanderers-must-find-nasty-edge-says-ian-evatt/

But Evatt admits he had some concerns about the players’ mindset even as they made a 100 per cent start, and in the build-up to the Wigan game he tried – unsuccessfully – to gee up the players to make a fast start to the derby.

Speaking to The Bolton News, he said: “I know this group of players better than anyone else, and sometimes the reason I say things to you guys in the press publicly and other stuff behind the scenes is because I know the type of group we have got.

“They are quite a relaxed and confident group and sometimes getting that emotion and passion out of them is quite a difficult thing to do.

“They are really nice lads, an honest bunch of players, but they struggle to drive standards and find that horrible, nasty edge. That goes for the games we have played this season as well because when we have gone 3-0 up we just haven’t had that killer mindset to go again and put teams to the sword.

“I tried to drum that up in them. I wanted to build the game up so that physically and mentally they were ready to challenge in a derby, win duels, first contacts and second balls but we didn’t do any of that.

“It looked to me like we just thought we could turn up, impose our style on them, they would find it difficult to cope and we’d just take over and blow them away. Well, no, it is not that easy. There are times when you are going to get punched on the chin and you have to get up and recover to go again.

“As a group it is something that we need to improve on. I don’t think it is anything technical, tactical or physical, it is between the ears. For us to compete at the top end of this league – which is where everyone intends – we have to improve with that.”

'Derby' games mean more to the fans than the players.

Not many footballers end up playing for their home town team or the team they supported as a kid, so a derby to them is just another game against another set of players who just happen to be currently employed relatively close geographically.

I'm not sure that most 'modern footballers' really get the concept of how much these games mean to the fans.

1 hour ago, Traf said:

'Derby' games mean more to the fans than the players.

Not many footballers end up playing for their home town team or the team they supported as a kid, so a derby to them is just another game against another set of players who just happen to be currently employed relatively close geographically.

I'm not sure that most 'modern footballers' really get the concept of how much these games mean to the fans.

Wigan do judging from their reactions 

The concern for me in that article is that IE admits he struggles to get the players in mindset that sometimes they need to scrap 

It's not only local derbies where that's the case 

We can't be going limp when the opposition want to get in our faces if we're to get promoted 

That requires a certain type of player on the pitch 

One we don't appear to have