June 27, 20188 yr Where have you read that? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbe47906-76ed-11e8-bc7b-5fc0ce8b4638
June 28, 20188 yr https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbe47906-76ed-11e8-bc7b-5fc0ce8b4638 Can't read it as I'm not signed up. Is he levelling accusations at someone in particular?
June 28, 20188 yr There was no medical reasons for the administering of these painkillers. Suggestions lives were shortened unnecessarily. Last I heard was the CPS may take a look to see if charges should be brought. Interesting that the doctor said fuck all and her statement was totally bland. More to come reckon.
June 28, 20188 yr There was no medical reasons for the administering of these painkillers. The devil is in the detail there though. If a member of my family had to be prescribed a syringe driver at the end of life - I'd want analgesia included in the mix in case they were in pain but unable to communicate it. I imagine that's what happened in most of these cases. There's a distinction to be made between keeping someone comfortable (even it that does mean their death happens a little more quickly) and bumping someone off because you need the bed/or you don't like them. Which is what the headline of that article seems to be alluding to?
June 28, 20188 yr Yes, I understand that. But listening to some of the complainants families I'm not sure they were all at the end of life stage. 650 odd folk apparently. In your example surely there's a medical reason- ie patient is dying and needs pain easing. Guess we'll see when all investigations are carried out and if the CPS go ahead with any prosecutions.
June 28, 20188 yr Can't read it as I'm not signed up. Is he levelling accusations at someone in particular? "The report, led by James Jones, the former Bishop of Liverpool, reveals that only 45% of those administered terminal quantities of diamorphine were said to be in pain. And in 29% of cases their medical notes gave either no reason, or no comprehensible justification, for the lethal dose (most died within a couple of days of being attached to the pump). … The ones most likely to get the treatment appeared to be not the sickest, but the most 'difficult'."
June 28, 20188 yr "The report, led by James Jones, the former Bishop of Liverpool, reveals that only 45% of those administered terminal quantities of diamorphine were said to be in pain. And in 29% of cases their medical notes gave either no reason, or no comprehensible justification, for the lethal dose (most died within a couple of days of being attached to the pump). … The ones most likely to get the treatment appeared to be not the sickest, but the most 'difficult'." Define 'difficult' - if he means they were distressed and writhing about the bed or showing major signs of agitation then trying analgesia is absolutely the right thing to do - pain will cause you to do all of those things if you can't voice it. If he means they kept complaining that the tea was too weak then that's another matter altogether.
June 28, 20188 yr Some of the Gosport victims had only gone in with bed sores FFS. Have you ever seen a grade 4 pressure sore? Nasty shit. Particularly as people tend to be admitted with multiple ones due to poor care or neglect. They can easily get infected and cause sepsis if they haven't been caught in time. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=grade+4+pressure+sore&safe=off&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI-9r9t_bbAhUrBcAKHZFIA50Q_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560 Plus the kind of people who are in risk of pressure sores tend to be elderly and immobile and are much more likely to have comorbidities.
June 28, 20188 yr Define 'difficult' - if he means they were distressed and writhing about the bed or showing major signs of agitation then trying analgesia is absolutely the right thing to do - pain will cause you to do all of those things if you can't voice it. If he means they kept complaining that the tea was too weak then that's another matter altogether. The examples quoted indicate difficult as bloody awkward, not at all distressed.
June 28, 20188 yr Have you ever seen a grade 4 pressure sore? Nasty shit. Particularly as people tend to be admitted with multiple ones due to poor care or neglect. They can easily get infected and cause sepsis if they haven't been caught in time. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=grade+4+pressure+sore&safe=off&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI-9r9t_bbAhUrBcAKHZFIA50Q_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560 Plus the kind of people who are in risk of pressure sores tend to be elderly and immobile and are much more likely to have comorbidities. Don't think anyone has issues with any of this. Presumably they would be classed as medical needs and recorded as such- meaning nothing to investigate. Something isn't right here, at least that's how it seems.
June 28, 20188 yr Don't think anyone has issues with any of this. Presumably they would be classed as medical needs and recorded as such- meaning nothing to investigate. Something isn't right here, at least that's how it seems. In reality though - a lot of things don't get recorded. I've given PRN (as required) medications on lots of occasions when someone is in acute pain and although I've always signed for it on the meds chart - I'll admit that on occasion I've forgotten to document my rationale in the nursing notes. Not because I'm being lazy - usually because someone else has needed me urgently and documentation has had to wait - and then it gets forgotten amongst the 110 other things that have happened in the meantime. I'd hate for someone to go through my notes and then pull me up on it in ten years time and tell me that I was giving pain relief for no good reason. By way of reassurance - Bolton has a really robust document called the Record of Care for a Dying Patient - that everybody involved has to write in. It shows how the multidisciplinary team has worked in unison to provide compassionate care and the idea is to use it alongside the patients family to make sure the patients wishes are being fulfilled. It also means that little things like Miami spoke about with his Dad aren't overlooked. And they mean a great deal. I don't know how all this will pan out - but I bet even tonight there will families who's loved ones are going onto a syringe driver at the end of life worrying that their family member is being bumped off when in reality the team are doing everything they can to give them a good death. Anything (like this) that erodes that trust really bothers me. And headlines like 'death syringes' don't help. Let's see what happens and if there are any charges.
June 28, 20188 yr Have you ever seen a grade 4 pressure sore? Nasty shit. Particularly as people tend to be admitted with multiple ones due to poor care or neglect. They can easily get infected and cause sepsis if they haven't been caught in time. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=grade+4+pressure+sore&safe=off&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI-9r9t_bbAhUrBcAKHZFIA50Q_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560 Plus the kind of people who are in risk of pressure sores tend to be elderly and immobile and are much more likely to have comorbidities. I think you're splitting hairs here. I get what you're saying, but... Some of those admitted to Gosport didn't need end of life care, they just needed care. They were murdered, just like Shipman's victims.
June 28, 20188 yr Fair points kent; very understandable that recordings may be missed occasionally. Hope it doesn't undermine trust. Trafs point is the big concern here, hope there's nothing untoward.
June 28, 20188 yr Ive read very little on this but it seems bizarre that on a number of occasions a doctor should prescribe something that's clearly inappropriate and then multiple nurses check and then administer the syringes and note the effects?? Then no other doctor coming in for separate shifts question the medication. Would have needed some level of incompetence or collusion from quite a few people. What timeframe were the deaths over and how many different wards?
June 28, 20188 yr Define 'difficult' - if he means they were distressed and writhing about the bed or showing major signs of agitation then trying analgesia is absolutely the right thing to do - pain will cause you to do all of those things if you can't voice it. If he means they kept complaining that the tea was too weak then that's another matter altogether. In this circumstances of this discussion, I think you know exactly what kind of difficult that means. The article quotes a nurse who recalled once joking with a colleague that a particular patient would get put on the pump if they kept making themselves awkward - same nurse who later went to the police about this behavior.
June 28, 20188 yr Ive read very little on this but it seems bizarre that on a number of occasions a doctor should prescribe something that's clearly inappropriate and then multiple nurses check and then administer the syringes and note the effects?? Then no other doctor coming in for separate shifts question the medication. Would have needed some level of incompetence or collusion from quite a few people. What timeframe were the deaths over and how many different wards? 1996 to 2010 - one ward.
June 28, 20188 yr Just read about it. First info I've seen besides the weird doorstep statement. What a massive fuck up. Worrying that this continued loads of people must have been aware.
June 29, 20188 yr I think you're splitting hairs here. I get what you're saying, but... Some of those admitted to Gosport didn't need end of life care, they just needed care. They were murdered, just like Shipman's victims. I'm away at the moment so I'm just going off what I can glean off the BBC - which doesn't go into a lot of detail. If the suggestion is that they gave 'healthy' patients lethal doses of diamorphine because the patients were getting on their nerves then an awful lot of people are going to get put away for an awfully long time.
June 29, 20188 yr I'm away at the moment so I'm just going off what I can glean off the BBC - which doesn't go into a lot of detail. If the suggestion is that they gave 'healthy' patients lethal doses of diamorphine because the patients were getting on their nerves then an awful lot of people are going to get put away for an awfully long time. Sadly, I think the allegations aren't far off what you said.
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