madthatter

Don't think the ones I teach should have to do compulsory homework . . . so there! Cheap digs now because I have a different opinion. What was NiC on about the other day?

Those stats are for corporal or capital? Big difference. Zico, I'm not really that arsed as it's not what i was ever getting at other than in response to what's happening in the UK. I'll happily admit it's a 'hunch' as there are no other precedents. You can look at other countries all day but, well, see my other posts.

Careful. Again you can't make a direct comparison. If it was stated by the powers that be tomorrow that anyone found guilty of an acid attack would have similar treatment as punishment the shock value would be much higher than in Pakistan. The little fcukers that do these things know full well they'll get away relative scot free. if that situation changes they'd more than think twice I reckon. And once one person has that fate, not many more would want it upon themselves. Folk say above about the victims saying they don't want that kind of retribution -well that's fine. They find peace. The flip side of that is perhaps someone who faces that punishment might one day come out and say it was the right thing, they deserved it and now want to make positive differences with their lives. Who knows, but that's why i think that but it's not as simple as saying I want Pakistani law is it?

Yes it's my lifetime ambition. I'll even get my lad front row tickets for his 3rd birthday. Loon

Well, without digging deeper, probably not. Never said contrary. But if someone is murdering or disfiguring for cultural reasons such as Pakistan - I'd bet Malaysia, Cambodia and a few others would be high due to the 'honour' culture - then it's not comparable to use stats from the states. Well, you can, but it only paints half of a picture. A bit like owd Irish Ged who looks at the field and says, 'Sure the grass is green.' 'Aye, Ged, but it can also be yellow, or brown'. 'What? Go way wi yer sen - it's clearly green you idiot!'.

Fair enough. So one country? As I said, I'm surprised (well, not by Pakistan) but if it turns out that all countries that have corporal punishment also have high rates of violent rime then Id be happy to reconsider my thoughts on it. Again, it is in no way fully indicative of what introducing it into the UK might bring about for a specific instance such as this.

Now who's being obtuse? If wanting to prevent innocent children being scarred for life is dark and murky then fook me - what world do you live in?

'Great minds' eh? I honestly think it would have an impact - even if it was a temporary measure to curb such attacks. The UK doesn't have corporal punishments. If we introduced it here it would have a markedly different effect than countries that do. Also, you used the US as a defining example. It's one nation. You'd also have to look at all nations, their histories, social set ups, beliefs, norms etc before drawing any conclusions. You looked at one stat and went 'yeah, that proves it'.

I don't Mick, it's an opinion. It's not going away or getting better is it and something needs to be done.

If you'd have asked me which country has the highest rate of acid attacks Pakistan would have been my first guess; and yes, because of the culture. I'm not sure what point you're making, or why? If it turns out countries that do these attacks the most have barbaric punishments then so be it. My suspicion was wrong. My point about culture, in this context (one of your faves), was to show that looking at stats like Mick did for the US is fraught with problems due to cultural differences, amongst other things. For example, if a country had such punishments before any acid attacks started then it means absolutely nothing to the situation we're discussing in London Still think it would reduce the numbers here mind. And even if it doesn't, so what, they get a suitable punishment for a repulsive crime.

It is and this is the problem. It's hard to say really. I certainly wouldn't want to advocate it long term for the reasons you outline but perhaps measures could be brought in for special circumstances such as this. And again, you'd have to be shown to be of willful intent and sound of mind (which is a bit of a contradiction I know) at the time. As for the three lads, torture them with red ants until they confess and then douse the perpetrator in battery acid until his skull melts. then post the video on YT whith a caption saying anyone else tries this shite on over here and you'll be next. Acid, what acid?

How do you know? We're not talking about the death penalty, we're talking about a specific crime in a specific place which is becoming a very worrying norm. Are there stats from the US on this as well?

As for these ISIS fellas - they can't expect to be treated like civillians can they? They went willingly to wage war against the west and non-believers and would have lobbed your Granny's head off in front of the whole world given half a chance. They should be treated like the murderous savages they wanted to become. The death penalty for those types is very different to the death penalty for, say, first degree murder.

I get that pov as well, I really do. The thought that someone can do that to another human being without any real consequence just doesn't sit well with me. And I honestly believe it would deter would be attackers.

To be fair what you and Mick are now on about isn't really relevant to my original opinion that throwing acid on those kinds of criminals faces is what I'd like to see being done as I think it fits the crime and would make it less 'appealing'. No-ones answered the direct question yet I asked above about London . . . If you ask me in general is the death penalty a deterrent I'd probably say not really - but that's a separate and much wider issue. I'll ask again - do you think the red line would drop? It's all about opinions

I meant my kids . . . No. There are more countries in the world than the US, Mick. Thailand? Always hearing about acid being lobbed over there? Culture, again.

Exactly. Every time I looked at their face.

Maybe later today if I get chance I'll have a dig around but taking one stat, of which many mitigating factors impinge upon, and then using that one stat to say it disproves the whole notion is pretty lame. If you tried that debating tactic at Oxbridge they'd laugh you out of the halls fwiw I think culture is the biggest factor - not so much the deterrent. But, and it's a big but, if you have a sub-culture as we do in London (UK) with these type of attacks then I would argue that changing the repercussions to fit that sub group would have a significant impact. Answer this - If that punishment was brought in tomorrow do you think the graph that Zico shows would drop? If so, a little or a lot? It's all conjecture but I know what horse I'd back. And then, you see, no more/less innocent folk would be disfigured for life; that's where my compassion comes in.

Well that proves it then! I recant on knee with head bowed Mick, you know better than that, surely? And just for clarity, I'm not putting an argument forward, as such, just saying I'd like to see (comprehensive) data analysis along with the anecdotal stuff. I'd find that interesting.

I've not seen such recommendations to be fair but, honestly, it's been hot as hell down here with high humidity to boot. Fine if you're outdoors, to a degree, or in air-con but some of these old buildings I've been working in are way beyond what's comfortable for human beings. Kids are literally wilting and gasping for water 24/7. I'm not complaining about the weather, even though my bastard sun allergy means I can't really enjoy it fully, but it's fair to say we're not set up for it in the UK. A bit like snow, wind, heavy rain . . .

kin el. See this is what I mean by the hysterical girl's blouse bit. Use your common sense. I've stated more than once that such punishments would be deserving of very specific hateful crimes that were carried out with sane mind and body and with intent to disfigure/blow up kids etc. I also don't agree about the deterrent bit. Where is it 'proved' that the argument is dead. Lots of anecdotal evidence suggests contrary. Would love to see a study comparing violent crime to countries with 'barbaric' punishments against those that don't.

And? They'd all deserve it, don't you think? Make disfigurement by acid the punishment for disfigurement by acid and see that red line dip sharpish. Not reckon? For all the hysterical blouses saying I'm calling for a return to the dark ages, I'm not. Just for certain inhumane and barbaric crimes - this being one. I've also been to countries that have such punishments and I can honestly say they were a damn site more peaceful and with less anti-social behaviour than over here. I don't feel the west is always right or has the moral high ground, that's all.

For some things, as i said. Gammon Like I asked Mick, what would you suggest as fitting punishment and deterrent? I reckon that anyone sane of mind who knew that if they willingly poured acid on someones face they'd get the same treatment would not do it. If they were not sane of mind - it's a different situation, as I said.

Well I'm clearly not alone . . . Out of interest, what would you suggest to suitably punish and deter? I'm sure there'd be quite a few willing participants. If not, use a robot and make it as impersonal as possible.

Yeah cos predictably scathing any comment one disagrees with is much more fun