http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16675314

 

To cap, or not to cap?

Edited January 23, 201214 yr by Uncle Albert

Youri Djorkaeff. You keep banging on about 'capitalist systems' etc. Please suggest a viable alternative. Don't waste your time with that red garbage which is as failed a system as you could possibly imagine. So, what else would you suggest to achieve your socialist utopia? The bottom line to all of this is there are industrious fcukers and there are lazy cunts. Without the industrious fcukers, the lazy cunts would get nothing from anywhere (be it the opportunity to do an honest days work for an honest days pay or via welfare/dole payments). The reason communism can never work is that human nature needs the carrot on a stick to excel and improve. You may as well abandon the reds now pal unless you wish to hold North Korea up as a socialist Valhalla. It is consigned to history as an utter and total failure. There are deserving cases out there who can't get a job but try. The whole thrust of this (and the reason 9 out of 10 in the Poll above vote for a cap) is that we all know there is an army of habitual dossers who would happily live out the rest of their unfulfilling existences on the back of the taxpayers. You know, I know it, we all know it. I don't think a single poster on this thread has bad mouthed the unfortunate who are trying to get back into work. It's the glassbacks who generate the contempt.

Edited February 6, 201214 yr by bolty58

How is that a YES or NO question? The fact you think that it is baffles me to be honest pal. I suggest opening your mind a fraction more and realising it depends on a persons circumstance.

 

 

Trust me, my mind is totally wide open. I've probably forgotton more about lifes ups and downs than you'll ever see but thats another discussion.

 

Anyway, it is a simple yes or no answer. Why? Because beer, fags, and Sky TV are luxuries, not essentials.

 

Many a man and woman, regardless of their circumstances, choose to purchase these after they have fed, clothed, and sheltered themselves and their dependants. It isn't unreasonable to expect those relying upon state welfare to do the same and a great many do, I accept that.

 

I do not have a problem with providing the weak, vunerable, and unfortunate with lifes basic essentials - it is one of the things which defines a civilised society.

 

Paying for people to sit in the fucking pub whilst their kids go to school filthy with a packet of Wotsits inside them isn't.

Youri Djorkaeff. You keep banging on about 'capitalist systems' etc. Please suggest a viable alternative. Don't waste your time with that red garbage which is as failed a system as you could possibly imagine. So, what else would you suggest to achieve your socialist utopia? The bottom line to all of this is there are industrious fcukers and there are lazy cunts. Without the industrious fcukers, the lazy cunts would get nothing from anywhere (be it the opportunity to do an honest days work for an honest days pay or via welfare/dole payments). The reason communism can never work is that human nature needs the carrot on a stick to excel and improve. You may as well abandon the reds now pal unless you wish to hold North Korea up as a socialist Valhalla. It is consigned to history as an utter and total failure. There are deserving cases out there who can't get a job but try. The whole thrust of this (and the reason 9 out of 10 in the Poll above vote for a cap) is that we all know there is an army of habitual dossers who would happily live out the rest of their unfulfilling existences on the back of the taxpayers. You know, I know it, we all know it. I don't think a single poster on this thread has bad mouthed the unfortunate who are trying to get back into work. It's the glassbacks who generate the contempt.

 

Ahhaa Bolty mate you really have cracked me up this monday moning. Where to start? I guess il go with the anti-commie rant. Firstly i have only mentioned" capitalist systems" once so havn't exactly been banging on about it. Now what made me really smile is the fact you actually believe im some sort of Guevara loving commie.

 

When you kept on banging on that i was i just assumed it was a bit of banter part and parcel to this site. Especially after i did mention it to you twice that was niether a communist or a socialist. The fact you have just wasted your time on a genuine angry keyboard rant is just hilarious. Hopefully after this fiasco you might get into your head. I would like to point out however that North Korea shares very little with communist ideology, only a fool uses that as an example.

 

Now to the benefit cap, it seems your left and right political bullshit has hindered your ability to read. If you look at my posts i voted cap and have mentioned on numerous occasions i want those capable of work claiming long term benefits to be made to volunteer and contribute to their local community whilst they look for work or training schemes.

 

What i have been taking issue with on this thread is the stereotyping of those on benefits and some of the ludicrous comments such as policing how welfare money is spent. Bitching about a women who signs on yet works 6 days a week in a charity shop to compensate is wrong and i will rightly say so. Some comments have hinted that someone in work is a better person than someone out of work which is a dangerous judgment to make.

 

Although i voted cap i only think we should because of our economic crisis. Capping benefits will effect the most vulnerable who deserve and rely on benefits and will leave them sruggling to stay afloat in a wave of significant increases to fuel, electricity, food and travel. A little less money will not stop people "scrounging" off the state, these people need to be placed in voluntary roles until they find work or face having their benefits scrapped.

 

I also want to see justice throughout the class system. Whilst those capable of work are made to contribute i want to see the giant corperations paying their way in tax or also facing punishment. Whilst those on long term benefits are placed in community service roles i want to see banks which were bailed out by the taxpayer having their extortionate bonuses scrapped. Believing in justice and fairness accross the spectrum doesn't mean i want to take an AK47 and pack of cigars and march through the Cuban jungle Bolty. Okay? I do hope we can put all that behind us now

 

It's institutions such as our welfare state which seperate us from countries such as North Korea. Giving every citizen the right to food and shelter is a good attribute to our country and we must be careful to protect it.

Trust me, my mind is totally wide open. I've probably forgotton more about lifes ups and downs than you'll ever see but thats another discussion.

 

Anyway, it is a simple yes or no answer. Why? Because beer, fags, and Sky TV are luxuries, not essentials.

 

Many a man and woman, regardless of their circumstances, choose to purchase these after they have fed, clothed, and sheltered themselves and their dependants. It isn't unreasonable to expect those relying upon state welfare to do the same and a great many do, I accept that.

 

I do not have a problem with providing the weak, vunerable, and unfortunate with lifes basic essentials - it is one of the things which defines a civilised society.

 

Paying for people to sit in the fucking pub whilst their kids go to school filthy with a packet of Wotsits inside them isn't.

 

How the fook is it a simple yes or no answer?? Its about individual circumstances.

 

Does an army veteran who looses his legs in Afghanistan not have the right to sky TV or beer whilst on benefits then?

 

Also what do you suggest we do to police the spending of welfare? Have you thought about how much that might cost the taxpayer to do so? And what defines a luxury? Should those on benefits be forbidden to buy M&S products and only be given money valid in Liddle? Think about what your proposing pal.

 

We need to concentrate on getting those able to work to contribute not waste time policing how people spend their welfare.

How the fook is it a simple yes or no answer?? Its about individual circumstances.

 

Does an army veteran who looses his legs in Afghanistan not have the right to sky TV or beer whilst on benefits then?

 

Also what do you suggest we do to police the spending of welfare? Have you thought about how much that might cost the taxpayer to do so? And what defines a luxury? Should those on benefits be forbidden to buy M&S products and only be given money valid in Liddle? Think about what your proposing pal.

 

We need to concentrate on getting those able to work to contribute not waste time policing how people spend their welfare.

 

Funnily enough I agree with pretty much everything you've been saying.

 

What I disagree on totally is those relying upon state welfare affording luxury items such as beer fags and Sky when there are many working folk who cannot. What personal circumstances need to be considered? Food and clothing versus fags and ale?

 

Tell that to a self employed lad who through no fault of his own goes short of work for a few weeks but has fucks chance of signing on. Who buys his ale and fags?

 

Suggesting it should not be dealt with because policing it would be difficult, is at best burying the issue and at worst encouraging it to continue.

 

Using that logic, we might as well save zillions on not bothering preventing/solving murders and just spend a couple of grand per death on a decent burial.

 

If we can plonk a man on the moon then I dont think its difficult to have one respected welfare system for the genuine wherby if those within it cut their cloth to suit they might be able to afford a few pints at weekend once they fed and watered their kids (like the rest of the population), and one for wankers who have become to expect to have their ale bought for them.

 

If it gives the wankers some encouragement to move on in their lives then so be it. Lifes a cunt sometimes.

Funnily enough I agree with pretty much everything you've been saying.

 

What I disagree on totally is those relying upon state beer fags and Sky when there are many working folk who cannot.

welfare affording luxury items such as What personal circumstances need to be considered? Food and clothing versus fags and ale?

Tell that to a self employed lad who through no fault of his own goes short of work for a few weeks but has fucks chance of signing on. Who buys his ale and fags?

 

Suggesting it should not be dealt with because policing it would be difficult, is at best burying the issue and at worst encouraging it to continue.

 

Using that logic, we might as well save zillions on not bothering preventing/solving murders and just spend a couple of grand per death on a decent burial.

 

If we can plonk a man on the moon then I dont think its difficult to have one respected welfare system for the genuine wherby if those within it cut their cloth to suit they might be able to afford a few pints at weekend once they fed and watered their kids (like the rest of the population), and one for wankers who have become to expect to have their ale bought for them.

 

If it gives the wankers some encouragement to move on in their lives then so be it. Lifes a cunt sometimes.

 

Im now a bit confused as to why we are comparing the spending of welfare to solving murders. Two completely different kettles of fish which we can't really put together, plus the comparison doesn't make any sense.

You didn't answer the question as to how you would police the spending of welfare and what classes as a luxury? The issue you have isn't being buried either we have systems in place such as social services which tries to ensure families will put the needs of kids before anything else when it comes to spending their welfare. I would just suggest we invest more in social services as a pose to a police force which goes checking every doley's receit.

 

the personal circumstances that need to be considered could be anything from how recent he/she was fired or quit their job? are they on disability benefits? Somebody who recently got let off has the right to buy cigs, ale and sky with their welfare money if they so choose. If you believe otherwise then you are suggesting that somebody out of work is inferior to somebody in work. What if they were sacked because the company went bust? That is what i mean by personal circumstance. To police welfare spending you would have to treat each and every case seperately and it waste too much time and money which should be used to get people contributing again.

 

I can understand why it makes you angry mate but at the end of the day if you take cigs, ale and sky tv off somebody claiming long term benefits its not neccessarily going to get them back into work. It would only make things worse.

I can understand why it makes you angry mate but at the end of the day if you take cigs, ale and sky tv off somebody claiming long term benefits its not neccessarily going to get them back into work. It would only make things worse.

 

How would it make it worse? I'm not nitpicking, but how worse?

Ahhaa Bolty mate you really have cracked me up this monday moning. Where to start? I guess il go with the anti-commie rant. Firstly i have only mentioned" capitalist systems" once so havn't exactly been banging on about it. Now what made me really smile is the fact you actually believe im some sort of Guevara loving commie.

 

When you kept on banging on that i was i just assumed it was a bit of banter part and parcel to this site. Especially after i did mention it to you twice that was niether a communist or a socialist. The fact you have just wasted your time on a genuine angry keyboard rant is just hilarious. Hopefully after this fiasco you might get into your head. I would like to point out however that North Korea shares very little with communist ideology, only a fool uses that as an example.

 

Now to the benefit cap, it seems your left and right political bullshit has hindered your ability to read. If you look at my posts i voted cap and have mentioned on numerous occasions i want those capable of work claiming long term benefits to be made to volunteer and contribute to their local community whilst they look for work or training schemes.

 

What i have been taking issue with on this thread is the stereotyping of those on benefits and some of the ludicrous comments such as policing how welfare money is spent. Bitching about a women who signs on yet works 6 days a week in a charity shop to compensate is wrong and i will rightly say so. Some comments have hinted that someone in work is a better person than someone out of work which is a dangerous judgment to make.

 

Although i voted cap i only think we should because of our economic crisis. Capping benefits will effect the most vulnerable who deserve and rely on benefits and will leave them sruggling to stay afloat in a wave of significant increases to fuel, electricity, food and travel. A little less money will not stop people "scrounging" off the state, these people need to be placed in voluntary roles until they find work or face having their benefits scrapped.

 

I also want to see justice throughout the class system. Whilst those capable of work are made to contribute i want to see the giant corperations paying their way in tax or also facing punishment. Whilst those on long term benefits are placed in community service roles i want to see banks which were bailed out by the taxpayer having their extortionate bonuses scrapped. Believing in justice and fairness accross the spectrum doesn't mean i want to take an AK47 and pack of cigars and march through the Cuban jungle Bolty. Okay? I do hope we can put all that behind us now

 

It's institutions such as our welfare state which seperate us from countries such as North Korea. Giving every citizen the right to food and shelter is a good attribute to our country and we must be careful to protect it.

 

 

 

It's getting too easy now

Im now a bit confused as to why we are comparing the spending of welfare to solving murders. Two completely different kettles of fish which we can't really put together, plus the comparison doesn't make any sense.

You didn't answer the question as to how you would police the spending of welfare and what classes as a luxury? The issue you have isn't being buried either we have systems in place such as social services which tries to ensure families will put the needs of kids before anything else when it comes to spending their welfare. I would just suggest we invest more in social services as a pose to a police force which goes checking every doley's receit.

 

the personal circumstances that need to be considered could be anything from how recent he/she was fired or quit their job? are they on disability benefits? Somebody who recently got let off has the right to buy cigs, ale and sky with their welfare money if they so choose. If you believe otherwise then you are suggesting that somebody out of work is inferior to somebody in work. What if they were sacked because the company went bust? That is what i mean by personal circumstance. To police welfare spending you would have to treat each and every case seperately and it waste too much time and money which should be used to get people contributing again.

 

I can understand why it makes you angry mate but at the end of the day if you take cigs, ale and sky tv off somebody claiming long term benefits its not neccessarily going to get them back into work. It would only make things worse.

 

FFS, it's hard work sometimes.

 

I used the murder comparison because you said policing welfare would be too difficult and not cost efficient (or words to that effect). Does that mean we do nothing? If so, lets save money on murder investigations and just bury folk. Or perhaps save billions on firebobbies and just let things burn down. Just because something is difficult to resolve does not mean we should ignore it.

 

Regarding the rest of your questions, I'm fairly sure this covered it clearly enough.

 

"If we can plonk a man on the moon then I dont think its difficult to have one respected welfare system for the genuine wherby if those within it cut their cloth to suit they might be able to afford a few pints at weekend once they fed and watered their kids (like the rest of the population), and one for wankers who have become to expect to have their ale bought for them.

 

If it gives the wankers some encouragement to move on in their lives then so be it. Lifes a cunt sometimes."

 

 

It's getting too easy now

 

AHA

 

I think its all pretty clear from your wee rant earlier that there was a little more to it than trying to wind me up. You can't get out of it that easy my fascist friend.

How would it make it worse? I'm not nitpicking, but how worse?

 

Fair question. I just don't see the logic in taking everything away from somebody and then expecting them to bow down to you.

 

If some sort of "welfare spending police force" went up to some people in a pub and took away their pints and cigs and told them to stop watching the footy on the box because they didn't have a job do you really believe they would then go out and find a job? Or would they maybe be tempted to seek alternative methods to gain such "luxuries."

Edited February 6, 201214 yr by Youri Djorkaeff

Fair question. I just don't see the logic in taking everything away from somebody and then expecting them to bow down to you.

 

If some sort of "welfare spending police force" went up to some people in a pub and took away their pints and cigs and told them to stop watching the footy on the box because they didn't have a job do you really believe they would then go out and find a job?

 

Now that is a fucking good idea.

And it would create new jobs: the benefit police.

Now that is a fucking good idea.

 

This time round its me hoping that you're the one joking

And it would create new jobs: the benefit police.

 

With the Daily Mail doing the investigations?

This time round its me hoping that you're the one joking

 

I was BUT if I was in the pub and some dosser* was giving it large I'd probably have a word with them about their lifestyle choice.

 

 

 

*being someone known for being workshy and can't be arsed getting a job rather than someone trying to look for work.

We've had something similar before on here.

 

Simple solution....National Insurance Rewards Card, like you get in Tesco. Points make prizes. For every week you have worked (go back as long as records allow) you get a point. Whether you earned a quid an hour or a million a week, a full week still gets you a single point.

 

Build up these points. The more you collect the more you are entitled to in your (or your dependants) hours of need.

 

If you've worked 20 years in a factory and are laid off, lose a leg, or have to pack up to look after your dependants through serious illness or whatever your looked after to a reasonable level. You might lose the holiday caravan but you'll be fed and housed, and a pint in your hand on a Saturday afternoon.

 

If you're self employed, doing your best and have a drought, you shouldn't be worried about paying the gas bill next week and having your van repo'd a month later.

 

If you're able bodied and put fuck all in, your on milk tokens. Tough. I'm not getting up at 6am to buy their fucking ale.

 

If you want to get off the milk tokens then work within the community (or simply put some fucking effort into society) in some way to gain your points. Once you've shown you have some modicum of social integrity then society will look after you. Until then, fuck off.

I was BUT if I was in the pub and some dosser* was giving it large I'd probably have a word with them about their lifestyle choice.

 

 

 

*being someone known for being workshy and can't be arsed getting a job rather than someone trying to look for work.

 

Fair play NB

We've had something similar before on here.

 

Simple solution....National Insurance Rewards Card, like you get in Tesco. Points make prizes. For every week you have worked (go back as long as records allow) you get a point. Whether you earned a quid an hour or a million a week, a full week still gets you a single point.

 

Build up these points. The more you collect the more you are entitled to in your (or your dependants) hours of need.

 

If you've worked 20 years in a factory and are laid off, lose a leg, or have to pack up to look after your dependants through serious illness or whatever your looked after to a reasonable level. You might lose the holiday caravan but you'll be fed and housed, and a pint in your hand on a Saturday afternoon.

 

If you're self employed, doing your best and have a drought, you shouldn't be worried about paying the gas bill next week and having your van repo'd a month later.

 

If you're able bodied and put fuck all in, your on milk tokens. Tough. I'm not getting up at 6am to buy their fucking ale.

 

If you want to get off the milk tokens then work within the community (or simply put some fucking effort into society) in some way to gain your points. Once you've shown you have some modicum of social integrity then society will look after you. Until then, fuck off.

 

Where do you get the money from for this points system? How do you police it?

 

Your points system is bordering on the North Korean regime the more i look at it. A factory worker gets laid off or looses his leg and all you think he's entitled to is the one pint on a saturday afternoon?? Jeesus, i can't remember the last time i read so much nonsense.

 

I really do empathise with you on getting abled people claiming benefits to contribute the the community but your way of doing it is fuckin absurd.

 

Oh and one last question? I don't collect enough tokens for my saturday afternoon pint am i allowed to brew my own wine? Or will you be sending round the benefit token police to cut off my hand?

I fucking give up with this berk

Where do you get the money from for this points system? How do you police it?

 

Your points system is bordering on the North Korean regime the more i look at it. A factory worker gets laid off or looses his leg and all you think he's entitled to is the one pint on a saturday afternoon?? Jeesus, i can't remember the last time i read so much nonsense.

 

I really do empathise with you on getting abled people claiming benefits to contribute the the community but your way of doing it is fuckin absurd.

 

Oh and one last question? I don't collect enough tokens for my saturday afternoon pint am i allowed to brew my own wine? Or will you be sending round the benefit token police to cut off my hand?

 

I think something like this on your NI card would be a winner.

 

 

Points Make Prizes!

 

 

Anyway, if you want to get really serious and ridiculously pedantic then fair enough, I'm in the mood. For now anyway because I've just made a brew. After that I'll be bored with you again and the other 13 pages of waffle.

 

So then.

 

Those good people who already work for The Revenue can run it. Easy. Swap one system for another. We dont need a mutibillion pound software package for them to fuck up again. Carlos can do the programming, bit of a basic Excel spreadsheet will do. Don't forget the logo at the top. Add a couple od duplicate pads and a pen and we're sorted.

 

If you're not happy with giving the bloke who did 20 years food and shelter (you conveniently forgot to mention that bit) and a pint on a Saturday, lets give him a speedboat too. If its good enough for Bullseye its good enough for us. Even better, and you'll fucking love this bit....Get the workshy to build them for their Points! Woop.

 

We could create the worlds biggest Speedboat industry, once up and running we could ship them out to the world. Global export. Think big my friend, think BIIIIIGGGGG!!

 

If he's lost his limbs and doesnt fancy a Speedboat for fear of drowning, then lets give him a bouncy castle instead. Hours of fun. He can hire it out to kids parties, and before you know it you've created a potential eutrepreneur.

 

Start looking at the positives instead of the negatives. Opportunites do not fall out of a packet of Golden Virginia.

 

I wouldn't have the Coupon Police battering down any doors for making home brew because that would just be fucking silly.

I think something like this on your NI card would be a winner.

 

 

Points Make Prizes!

 

 

Anyway, if you want to get really serious and ridiculously pedantic then fair enough, I'm in the mood. For now anyway because I've just made a brew. After that I'll be bored with you again and the other 13 pages of waffle.

 

So then.

 

Those good people who already work for The Revenue can run it. Easy. Swap one system for another. We dont need a mutibillion pound software package for them to fuck up again. Carlos can do the programming, bit of a basic Excel spreadsheet will do. Don't forget the logo at the top. Add a couple od duplicate pads and a pen and we're sorted.

 

If you're not happy with giving the bloke who did 20 years food and shelter (you conveniently forgot to mention that bit) and a pint on a Saturday, lets give him a speedboat too. If its good enough for Bullseye its good enough for us. Even better, and you'll fucking love this bit....Get the workshy to build them for their Points! Woop.

 

We could create the worlds biggest Speedboat industry, once up and running we could ship them out to the world. Global export. Think big my friend, think BIIIIIGGGGG!!

 

If he's lost his limbs and doesnt fancy a Speedboat for fear of drowning, then lets give him a bouncy castle instead. Hours of fun. He can hire it out to kids parties, and before you know it you've created a potential eutrepreneur.

 

Start looking at the positives instead of the negatives. Opportunites do not fall out of a packet of Golden Virginia.

 

I wouldn't have the Coupon Police battering down any doors for making home brew because that would just be fucking silly.

 

Fook that ! Im certainly not in the mood anymore. To be fair your latest idea has made me laugh, it sounds like something off the "monster raving looney party" manifesto.

We both seem to want the same but have different ways of going about it, im gona attempt to leave it at that mate and get a beer from the local with my work points

edit:remove.

Edited February 6, 201214 yr by Youri McAnespie

AHA

 

I think its all pretty clear from your wee rant earlier that there was a little more to it than trying to wind me up. You can't get out of it that easy my fascist friend.

 

 

Oh dear. Yank warmonger to fascist in one easy step. Get the meatballs mother, we're coming to a fork in the raod.

I fucking give up with this berk

 

Methinks Maggie is possibly the wisest of all of us.