Politics

[Boby Brno]

2 hours ago, Ani said:

Ohh we have not done pit closures for a while. 
Under Labour there was a planned programme of pit closures, supported by inward investment into the areas. This included retraining. 
Thatcher accelerated the closures and reduced/stopped the investment. They basically abandoned these areas. 
 

Thatcher hated the Unions and had seen what they had done to earlier Govts, she set out to break that power and did so. 
 

That is all political history, if you think it was right or wrong to do it will depend on your political inclination. Personally I think something had to happen re the power of the unions (and their inherent corruption) but Thatcher did it with no concern and thought for rest of the communities. 

I’ve listened to this political rhetoric for over 30 years and no one has ever shown any proof. 
The facts are that Labour closed more pits than the Tories.

 

[Spider]

The bottom line is that there are two types of voter

The Idealogical type - you all know them. Red rosette on a pig gets Labour their vote; blue rosette on a hedge fund manager setting fire to an orphanage would still get a Tory vote. 
 

Then there are those who study manifesto’s, judge parties by their recent behaviour and vote according to their conscience.

the former type of voter I could probably spot on here easily enough.

The latter, not so simple.

I know which I’d rather be though.

[Boby Brno]

4 minutes ago, Spider said:

The bottom line is that there are two types of voter

The Idealogical type - you all know them. Red rosette on a pig gets Labour their vote; blue rosette on a hedge fund manager setting fire to an orphanage would still get a Tory vote. 
 

Then there are those who study manifesto’s, judge parties by their recent behaviour and vote according to their conscience.

the former type of voter I could probably spot on here easily enough.

The latter, not so simple.

I know which I’d rather be though.

During the Brexit referendum, there were 3 types of voter. Those who were happy with the status quo, those who wanted change and those who looked on the side of a bus. 
The later type of voter I could probably spot on here easily enough.

[Ani]

20 minutes ago, Boby Brno said:

I’ve listened to this political rhetoric for over 30 years and no one has ever shown any proof. 
The facts are that Labour closed more pits than the Tories.

 

Which bit has never been proved ? That there was a planned programme of pit closures ? Or that Thatcher accelerated them without a similar plan ? 

[Boby Brno]

3 minutes ago, Ani said:

Which bit has never been proved ? That there was a planned programme of pit closures ? Or that Thatcher accelerated them without a similar plan ? 

The highlighted bit. 

[Spider]

11 minutes ago, Boby Brno said:

During the Brexit referendum, there were 3 types of voter. Those who were happy with the status quo, those who wanted change and those who looked on the side of a bus. 
The later type of voter I could probably spot on here easily enough.

That wasn’t a vote for a political party, which was the point I was making.

The Bus was a nice touch though. Boris spent a lot of time on it as I recall.

we could spend forever picking holes in previous leaders.

Gordon Brown. There’s a bloke who gave more English gold away than Aethelred the Unready when he was filling longships with Danegeld. AND he had a wonky eye.

Thatcher. I loved her but she didn’t half make mistakes. Poll tax, anyone?

But of all the PM’s we’ve had since Maggie, I’d probably have to say Boris is the worst. I don’t actually blame him really. I think he was fast tracked to dupe a glassy-eyed populace into voting for the affable bloke who had more than a whiff of Reality TV contestant about him.

He’s done well with the vaccine but in all honesty, he was due.

[Ani]

1 minute ago, Boby Brno said:

The highlighted bit. 

Ok the Labour policy I think was called 'Plan for Coal' and involved closure of uneconomic mines. 
The alternative that Thatcher followed was the Ridley report that set out how to accelerate this leading to a conflict with the unions.

These are pretty accepted historical events, supporters of Thatcher will argue breaking union power was essential for the future of the country and one of her most significant achievements. Her opponents argue she went too far and might even argue the Unions were not a threat. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ani said:

Ok the Labour policy I think was called 'Plan for Coal' and involved closure of uneconomic mines. 
The alternative that Thatcher followed was the Ridley report that set out how to accelerate this leading to a conflict with the unions.

These are pretty accepted historical events, supporters of Thatcher will argue breaking union power was essential for the future of the country and one of her most significant achievements. Her opponents argue she went too far and might even argue the Unions were not a threat. 

She didn’t go far enough.

 

[Boby Brno]

2 minutes ago, Spider said:

That wasn’t a vote for a political party, which was the point I was making.

The Bus was a nice touch though. Boris spent a lot of time on it as I recall.

we could spend forever picking holes in previous leaders.

Gordon Brown. There’s a bloke who gave more English gold away than Aethelred the Unready when he was filling longships with Danegeld. AND he had a wonky eye.

Thatcher. I loved her but she didn’t half make mistakes. Poll tax, anyone?

But of all the PM’s we’ve had since Maggie, I’d probably have to say Boris is the worst. I don’t actually blame him really. I think he was fast tracked to dupe a glassy-eyed populace into voting for the affable bloke who had more than a whiff of Reality TV contestant about him.

He’s done well with the vaccine but in all honesty, he was due.

Boris was elected as Prime Minister in December 2019. In January 2020, a virus was detected in China that has changed the way the world works. How can anyone judge his premiership to any other in history?

[Ani]

1 minute ago, boltondiver said:

She didn’t go far enough.

 

😂😁 I thought that was the subjective bit, just a bit confused by BB's question. Thatchers legacy either way is based on it. Personally understanding more now about how the Unions were run it did need extreme action. 

[mickbrown]

32 minutes ago, Boby Brno said:

I’ve listened to this political rhetoric for over 30 years and no one has ever shown any proof. 
The facts are that Labour closed more pits than the Tories.

 

Except it's not a fact at all.

[Spider]

1 minute ago, Boby Brno said:

Boris was elected as Prime Minister in December 2019. In January 2020, a virus was detected in China that has changed the way the world works. How can anyone judge his premiership to any other in history?

A perfect chance to prove what a fantastic leader he could have been.

Some thrive in a crisis, some sort their mates out.

It is what it is. Shit, in this case.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ani said:

😂😁 I thought that was the subjective bit, just a bit confused by BB's question. Thatchers legacy either way is based on it. Personally understanding more now about how the Unions were run it did need extreme action. 

It did, but she backed off the public sector unions, and that continues to cause us issues.

[Boby Brno]

5 minutes ago, Ani said:

Ok the Labour policy I think was called 'Plan for Coal' and involved closure of uneconomic mines. 
The alternative that Thatcher followed was the Ridley report that set out how to accelerate this leading to a conflict with the unions.

These are pretty accepted historical events, supporters of Thatcher will argue breaking union power was essential for the future of the country and one of her most significant achievements. Her opponents argue she went too far and might even argue the Unions were not a threat. 

Thatcher recognised that all mines were uneconomic. ie. it was cheaper to buy from abroad just as Labour had done previously.

Yoh still haven’t shown how Labour supported inward investment in areas affected.

[mickbrown]

So ladies and gentlemen, the facts.

Between nationalisation in 1946 and privatisation in 1994, the Tories closed  442 pits. Labour closed 354.

You're fucking welcome.👍

[Boby Brno]

6 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

Except it's not a fact at all.

If you can prove me wrong, I’ll hold my hands up, again, and say I’m wrong.

I don’t think I am.👍

[Spider]

Shots fired

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Boby Brno said:

If you can prove me wrong, I’ll hold my hands up, again, and say I’m wrong.

I don’t think I am.👍

The point is; it is if no relevance 

[mickbrown]

Just now, Boby Brno said:

If you can prove me wrong, I’ll hold my hands up, again, and say I’m wrong.

I don’t think I am.👍

Look up there. 👆. 

You are.

Again. Becoming a habit this 👍

[Ani]

Just now, Boby Brno said:

Thatcher recognised that all mines were uneconomic. ie. it was cheaper to buy from abroad just as Labour had done previously.

Yoh still haven’t shown how Labour supported inward investment in areas affected.

That was the Plan for Coal supported by all parties. 

[Boby Brno]

3 minutes ago, Ani said:

That was the Plan for Coal supported by all parties. 

Sounds good. What did it do that the Thatcher government didn’t do?

[Ani]

Last time this debate came round I found a link to a brilliant article on this subject. It gave a very good insight into this from a political but non partisan view. (Think Bolty and I both agreed with it !) fucked if I can find it now unfortunately. 

[Boby Brno]

7 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

Look up there. 👆. 

You are.

Again. Becoming a habit this 👍

You’ve quoted some figures. I just asked for links or proof.

[Spider]

We need Miami here to adjudicate if Mick has earned the right to drop a Boom.

Its not anyone else’s place to judge.

[Ani]

1 minute ago, Boby Brno said:

Sounds good. What did it do that the Thatcher government didn’t do?

Basically as puts closed there was a plan to move people to work in other pits and provide incentives for businesses to invest in the area. 
If you read my comments on this I am not critical of Thatchers actions.

Do you really think the Labour Party of the 1970s would have been closing pits without the support of the Unions ? And as as such would need something to offer them. Equally do you think Thatcher would feel the need for the same ?