Northern ireland

[fatolive]

24 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The facts are the NI protocol was never meant to be permanent, it seems to me that Irish nationalists are using it as a tool to break NI away from the UK and the EU are using the opportunity to divert business from GB companies to EU companies.

This clearly acts against the rules set out in the treaty and creates the opportunity for UK to trigger article 16.

Of course it’ll be our fault if we are forced to trigger article 16 with those wishing to reunite NI with Ireland and nothing to do with the EU showing a lack of flexibility and proportionality in line with the risk of imports entering the EU from NI. 
 

 

 

Some take that . 
It’s an international treaty signed and agreed by both parties. 
can’t be arsed going into the rest of your Irish nationalist angle but would suggest you look at which party is refusing to form power sharing and get the government up and running for the benefit of NI now and it’s not a nationalist one . 

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, fatolive said:

Some take that . 
It’s an international treaty signed and agreed by both parties. 
can’t be arsed going into the rest of your Irish nationalist angle but would suggest you look at which party is refusing to form power sharing and get the government up and running for the benefit of NI now and it’s not a nationalist one . 

 

Their beef is still with the protocol though.

Whatever it's intentions, it's implementation isn't working properly.

[Mounts Kipper]

10 minutes ago, Nowack said:

Again. The majority of people in NI voted for parties who explicitly stated they were happy with the protocol. Surely that should be respected. 

NI is currently in the United Kingdom, end of discussion. 

[fatolive]

11 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Their beef is still with the protocol though.

Whatever it's intentions, it's implementation isn't working properly.

Some peoples beef yes. 
but again , most things happening with it can be found in complaints about it prior to its agreement. 
the whole wider border issue was a contentious point , the sea border was brought up as a solution initially in Theresa Mays reign and rejected by those who then signed up to it to “ get brexit done” 

[fatolive]

9 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

NI is currently in the United Kingdom, end of discussion. 

Whose citizens have voted for parties happy with the protocol 

[Mounts Kipper]

21 minutes ago, fatolive said:

Some take that . 
It’s an international treaty signed and agreed by both parties. 
can’t be arsed going into the rest of your Irish nationalist angle but would suggest you look at which party is refusing to form power sharing and get the government up and running for the benefit of NI now and it’s not a nationalist one . 

 

The NI protocol isn’t and wasn’t a permanent solution and that’s why EU still in talks albeit showing very little flexibility. That’s the facts. It’s no surprise that the nationalists using it to push for a United Ireland. 

The DUP want the NI protocol sorting before power sharing, as is their right to do so.

Let’s see what the outcome is after discussions this week taking place with UK government and all NI parties.
 

At the end of the day NI is still part of the UK and if the government decide that the EU aren’t acting in good faith then article 16 can be triggered. 
 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Mounts Kipper

[Mounts Kipper]

6 minutes ago, fatolive said:

Whose citizens have voted for parties happy with the protocol 

Some citizens, in the main if not all Irish Nationalists with an agenda to split the North from the UK. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Mounts Kipper

[fatolive]

2 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Some citizens, in the main if not all Irish Nationalists with an agenda to split the North from the UK. 

still democracy isn’t it ? 

There’s a minority of nationalists in Northern Ireland 

Others must have voted for parties happy with it to get a majority.
 

in terms of your permanent angle, you are correct it’s not permanent in the fact it’s up for change by citizens consensus after 4 years , not just because Boris or the DUP don’t like it , so citizens voting for parties that agree with it shouldn’t be denied a functioning government because some dont and it should be discussed within that framework, not from the sideline under direct London administration, as that’s not what people voted for. 
 

 

 

 

[Mounts Kipper]

14 minutes ago, fatolive said:

still democracy isn’t it ? 

There’s a minority of nationalists in Northern Ireland 

Others must have voted for parties happy with it to get a majority.
 

in terms of your permanent angle, you are correct it’s not permanent in the fact it’s up for change by citizens consensus after 4 years , not just because Boris or the DUP don’t like it , so citizens voting for parties that agree with it shouldn’t be denied a functioning government because some dont and it should be discussed within that framework, not from the sideline under direct London administration, as that’s not what people voted for. 
 

 

 

 

The protocol needs fixing, I don’t hold out much hope the EU will act in good faith.

Add to that the nationalist are using this as a tool to reunite Ireland then then I see little chance of a solution. 
 

With regards to NI place in the UK I  believe that should be decided by the population of NI, same with Scotland and Wales. 

[Escobarp]

4 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The protocol needs fixing, I don’t hold out much hope the EU will act in good faith.

Add to that the nationalist are using this as a tool to reunite Ireland then then I see little chance of a solution. 
 

With regards to NI place in the UK I  believe that should be decided by the population of NI, same with Scotland and Wales. 

Not quite the same with NI though unless they plan to become an independent country, which I don’t think would be a feasible option. in which case the same border issues they currently have would remain? So any vote would need to be linked to a return to a United ireland thus the south would need to also have a vote. 

[fatolive]

1 minute ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The protocol needs fixing, I don’t hold out much hope the EU will act in good faith.

Add to that the nationalist are using this as a tool to reunite Ireland then then I see little chance of a solution. 
 

With regards to NI place in the UK I  believe that should be decided by the population of NI, same with Scotland and Wales. 

How are they using it ? And who do you mean by Nationalists? The people or Sinn Fein in particular? 
their reason for existence is United Ireland , their political will, just the same as Unionists using it to remain in the Uk , that’s their reason for existence. 
that’s the whole issue in the place , not sure what point your making with that or how it can be “used “

but, again, if more people vote for parties happy with it then must be more than traditional  “nationalist” voters as the demographic is still a minority . 

[fatolive]

3 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Not quite the same with NI though unless they plan to become an independent country, which I don’t think would be a feasible option. in which case the same border issues they currently have would remain? So any vote would need to be linked to a return to a United ireland thus the south would need to also have a vote. 

Spot on 

whole different scenarios 

[Spider]

44 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Some citizens, in the main if not all Irish Nationalists with an agenda to split the North from the UK. 

What’s the problem with that?

You wanted us to split from the EU.

Are you saying it’s one rule for you….

[Spider]

Scotland had an independence referendum, if norn iron want one, it’s up to them.

Writing is on the wall…

[Farrelli]

14 minutes ago, Spider said:

Scotland had an independence referendum, if norn iron want one, it’s up to them.

Writing is on the wall…

The penny will drop with mounts sooner or later.  Brexit has accelerated the Scottish independence and united Ireland movements. There were no significant benefits for the smaller UK countries or in fact for the UK as a whole. I think people are seeing that reality now.

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, Farrelli said:

The penny will drop with mounts sooner or later.  Brexit has accelerated the Scottish independence and united Ireland movements. There were no significant benefits for the smaller UK countries or in fact for the UK as a whole. I think people are seeing that reality now.

You keep saying this re Scotland and it isnt quite true. 
 

Any move towards a second independence referendum up here has if anything slowed down not accelerated. And this isn’t driven by a lack of desire from the nationalist supporters but from the clear inability of the current Scottish government to deliver a referendum as its outwith their control.
 

Notwithstanding the fact that the leader of that party doesn’t really want independence imo as she knows it doesn’t work and she governs by division and to keep her place at the helm she needs Westminster to blame. The SNP’s record in government is appalling but never comes under the spotlight as they just turn up the volume on Westminster being to blame as a distraction. Sound familiar? 

[gonzo]

When are the petrol bombs gonna start getting chucked about then? 

[Mounts Kipper]

1 hour ago, Escobarp said:

Not quite the same with NI though unless they plan to become an independent country, which I don’t think would be a feasible option. in which case the same border issues they currently have would remain? So any vote would need to be linked to a return to a United ireland thus the south would need to also have a vote. 

I get that that.  I was talking about NI or any country leaving the UK and seeking independence. 

[Mounts Kipper]

38 minutes ago, Farrelli said:

The penny will drop with mounts sooner or later.  Brexit has accelerated the Scottish independence and united Ireland movements. There were no significant benefits for the smaller UK countries or in fact for the UK as a whole. I think people are seeing that reality now.

I felt since way before Brexit that the break up of the UK was inevitable at some point in the future.

I’m all for democracy, you can’t keep folk part of a union if the majority don’t want to be, that’s democracy and how it should be. 

[Mounts Kipper]

10 minutes ago, gonzo said:

When are the petrol bombs gonna start getting chucked about then? 

It’s about 10 weeks off isn’t it.  

[Farrelli]

45 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

You keep saying this re Scotland and it isnt quite true. 
 

Any move towards a second independence referendum up here has if anything slowed down not accelerated. And this isn’t driven by a lack of desire from the nationalist supporters but from the clear inability of the current Scottish government to deliver a referendum as its outwith their control.
 

Notwithstanding the fact that the leader of that party doesn’t really want independence imo as she knows it doesn’t work and she governs by division and to keep her place at the helm she needs Westminster to blame. The SNP’s record in government is appalling but never comes under the spotlight as they just turn up the volume on Westminster being to blame as a distraction. Sound familiar? 

You keep saying that but every election delivers a stronger mandate for the SNP so Scottish voters must think the alternatives are really poor.

[Escobarp]

26 minutes ago, Farrelli said:

You keep saying that but every election delivers a stronger mandate for the SNP so Scottish voters must think the alternatives are really poor.

A mandate that is built on something they cannot deliver as it outwith their control. 
 

a second referendum should be held and Westminster should consent 100%. It’s nonsense that they hold sway in this matter. 
 

but jimmy is delighted that it is that way as then she can avoid it. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Escobarp

[Spider]

38 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I felt since way before Brexit that the break up of the UK was inevitable at some point in the future.

I’m all for democracy, you can’t keep folk part of a union if the majority don’t want to be, that’s democracy and how it should be. 

We’ll be clinging onto the Falklands and Gibraltar like a kid clutching a comfort blanket before long.

Brexit has certainly given nationalists everywhere a boost.

[Nowack]

2 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Some citizens, in the main if not all Irish Nationalists with an agenda to split the North from the UK. 

But it looks to me that the Republican vote stood still while the Unionist DUP who are pro-brexit and against the protocol to more moderate or neutral parties.

[Farrelli]

11 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

 

but jimmy is delighted that it is that way as then she can avoid it. 

I don’t think that is true. Where is your evidence?

They cannot hold a referendum  now but the pressure keeps ramping up. The Green Party (Another pro-independence party) also increased their councillors significantly at the recent local elections.

At some point a second referendum will happen. Don’t get me wrong, I really do not want to see Scotland leave the UK but that is the direction of travel.