Dimron

That is certainly an "arrival" When I first saw the pictures last night I looked at the windsock in the distance which was showing very windy and gusting conditions so my thoughts were the guy had messed up a crosswind landing. Then maybe it could have been a "disruption" caused by following a wide body aircraft, I once saw a single engine Cherokee flipped on its back on landing by rotor wash from a heavy helicopter. My guess is the lack of visual clues from white sky and white ground and a nasty crosswind disorientated the crew... unless my wide body theory holds water then no one else is involved barring a mechanical linkage failing, so it's all down the the blokes in the pointed end.

Evil looking bastards aren't they? Must have read my suggestion to send B52s into Gaza!

If he has any sense, the pilot will already be outside chatting with the fire service 😁 (And looking at the jobs pages on Pprune)

"Thank you for flying Delta Airlines, Have a Nice Day" There'll be two gadgers in the Chief Pilot's office this morning and there won't be any tea and biscuits on the table!

So how do you vacate your seat on landing?

France and Poland weren't at Potsdam

It'll be on the agenda alongside the curvature of cucumbers which by EU rules should be 30cm long with a curvature of 10mm for every 10cm.

That is my point, I only think of Europe in a geographical sense but as a political bloc it has expanded beyond its geographical region into Eurasia and I don't think I want us to be part of that. Bringing in the relatively undeveloped eastern economies has undoubtedly damage ours and the other western economies and it appears we are now putting our security at stake. I am all for a common market based on the original concept but I have never been on board with the eastern expansion, to my mind it appears "Europe" has been hijacked

That lot will play 5 at the back and we all know who'll be the lone striker up front don't we? We went into Europe with the French in 1939, a fat lot of good that did!

Russia will retain Eastern Ukraine and Crimea as it needs access to its Black Sea Fleet.

I have no problem with us being involved in a peacekeeping force but not a fighting army. But... the ones with the most to lose should take the strain... Romania, Latvia, Lithuania and so on. Why are we still trying to be some sort of moral compass for Europe? We've jumped that ship!

I've been thinking about things again. I believe I am at odds with some of the posters because I do not consider the Black Sea to be part of Europe, I don't think of the Baltic area as European neither... Europe extends as far as the Western Adriatic in my head and as you say, leave them to it... we are dabbling in politics and cultures alien to us

Don't forget 11.000 British Troops were killed the last time we sent a large expeditionary force to Europe

I'd rather see European troops on the ground in Ukraine that that. Would this include UK Troops squaring up to Russians?

The UK is fortunate as it is surrounded by the sea... therefore we have definite borders (excepting Wales and Scotland)... the problem in central Europe is there are no definite borders but lots of generational discrimination and unrest towards the people in the next village an so on

No... It just spouts as I type... it's a gift, some sort of tourettes... but it often gets to some of the truths

Europe is going to be squeezed from existing as a potential player on the global stage... eastern states will have pro Russian puppets installed, we will have a pro US Government and the French, Germans and Italians will become some sort of engineering hubs which will be used to offset Chinese industry. The EU is becoming surrounded and the vultures are perched on the high ground waiting for the pickings

Bigger stakes at play. Mr Z will end up wanting to fight without Uncle Sucker funding and Russia will just soak it up. Do the UK now join a European Army and fight on? I for one would rather not

Putin expected to roll his tanks into Ukraine and install a pro-Russian puppet government just as the Soviet Union did previously in Hungary... it stalled for various reasons, one theory was the poor Chines tyres on his armoured columns stalling his push from Belarus. The West had already supplied sophisticated anti tank weapons and his military were massively out of date owing to a lack of investment. Everyone here knows I sometimes wish Putin had succeeded and things would have settled down again... as I have said borders and loyalties are very grey in central Europe. Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union... Chernobyl is in Ukraine and Mussorgsky wrote of the Great Gates of Kiev, Kiev is the heart of the Russian Orthodox Church. Mr Z needs the war as it is grip on power, his image is turning up at world forums in combat fatigues and DBs.... he can't go back to his people (of various ethnicity) and say it's over and your sons and husbands have died in vain.

I will Quote Ms Hyde from yesterdays Guardian again as I think it was quite relevant: "The UK's ego has long been writing cheques its body can't cash". A few years ago I came across a book by Tim Butcher "The Trigger" which describes the background to a penniless Bosnian unwittingly firing the opening shots of the First World War in Sarajevo... It described very well how the tightly packed eastern European cultures historically despise each other irrespective of where modern day national boundaries lie and I can see parallels in Eastern Ukraine. If you see copy, pick it up its is a good read. What do the Eastern European countries want? They want money, they continually want to put right their ghosts of the past and come out on top when fighting their traditional neighbouring foes

There was a time when I would agree 100% but since the eastern expansion of the EU I have reservations. It is becoming a tinderbox not unlike Sarajevo in 1913/4. I would really like to see an economic alliance not unlike the original Common Market

I think history tells us to be careful about what we sign up to, especially in these unstable times and a stagnating economy

The North American States are pulling out... Canada I recall is one of the lowest contributors... NATO will not survive in its present concept without their support...there's a new world order common along and we need to decide as a nation where we are going to belong

Because the UK and France honoured an Alliance Agreement with Poland signed off prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact... it wasn't just the Third Reich who invaded, Soviets and Slovaks were part of it... incidentally the citizens of Gdansk were in favour of the occupation being Germanic in descent. The moral is that eastern European politics are very involved and complex, just like the Balkans and we really do not understand the history and pass our over-simplistic judgment upon hundreds of years of hatred ... in some ways we need to leave them to it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgl27x74wpo I see Mr Z is covering his options by suggesting an "Army of Europe" should put boots onto the ground in Ukraine. Point 1:: Does this assume Ukraine is to be a member of the EU? Point 2: Should the UK commit to this Army not being an EU member? Marine Hyde this morning with regard to the second point: "The UK's ego has long been writing cheques its body can't cash"